Kaltenbrunner family group

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steve248
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Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by steve248 » 05 Aug 2020 12:18

When Ernst Kaltenbrunner was brought to the UK for interrogation in 1945, amongst his possessions this photo:
Kaltenbrunner family group.jpg
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Hans1906
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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by Hans1906 » 06 Aug 2020 09:20

Good morning steve248,

a very interesting photo about the Kaltenbrunner family.
What is the source for the photo, is an exact dating and localization of the photo possible?

Hans1906

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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by steve248 » 06 Aug 2020 13:27

This photo and a second a moment later, can be found Kaltenbrunner's MI 5 (British security service) name file at UK National Archives - reference KV 2/274.

I do not think there is a time frame for the photo given in this file.
It can be worked out by establishing when their third child was born who looks about six months old in this photo.

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Hans1906
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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by Hans1906 » 06 Aug 2020 13:39

Steve,

thanks for your efforts, is there a story behind the photos, how the pictures got into english hands, that would be interesting?

Hans1906

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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by steve248 » 06 Aug 2020 14:09

The only thing I can say about the photos is what I said with the first photo. Not all similar prisoner brought possessions with them - depending on when they were caught or arrested. Not many similar KV 2 series files like this have "family photos" which were retained when the prisoner was sent back to Germany. This particular file was possibly declassified about 15 years ago.

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Hans1906
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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by Hans1906 » 06 Aug 2020 14:35

Thanks Steve,

touching family photo from a later executed war criminal, without special evaluation.

Thinking about the german movie "Ein Dorf wehrt sich", starring Oliver Massuci as Dr. Ernst Kaltenbrunner.

Link: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Dorf_wehrt_sich

Docu about the filming, highly recommended!




Hans1906

Sorry, the movie is not online...

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Michael Miller
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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by Michael Miller » 06 Aug 2020 21:00

Assuming the youngest child in the photo is the youngest daughter (Barbara, born in 1944), the photo was taken sometime in 1944 or quite early in 1945. Left to right in front of Ernst K. are his son, [Dr. jur.] Hans-Jörg (born 28.02.1935, died of a heart attack in Budapest, 31.12.2007; see viewtopic.php?f=38&t=194567&hilit=Lisl), daughter Gertrud (born 25.07.1937), [presumably] Barbara (born 1944- month unknown), and Frau Elisabeth ("Lisl") Kaltenbrunner (born 20.10.1908 in Linz)

Exceptional photo, Steve. Thanks for sharing it.

Best wishes,
~ Mike

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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by Br. James » 07 Aug 2020 20:07

A very interesting thread; many thanks to all who added to this piece. The Wikipedia bio of Ernst also includes this personal notation:

"In addition to the children from his marriage, Kaltenbrunner had twins, Ursula and Wolfgang, (b. 1945) with his long-time mistress Gisela Gräfin von Westarp (née Wolf). All the children survived the war." Here is a further reference to Ernst's mistress:

Gisela Margarete Wilhelmine Wolf (von Westarp)
Birthdate: June 27, 1920
Birthplace: An der Elbe, Wittenberg, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany
Death: June 02, 1983 (62)
Munich, Bavaria, Germany
Immediate Family:
Daughter of Albrecht Berengar Graf von Westarp and Constance von Gontard
Wife of Paul Wolf
Partner of Ernst Kaltenbrunner
Mother of Private and Private
Sister of Gräfin Ehrentraut von Westarp and Gräfin Elke von Westarp

I wonder where these two other children are, if they're still alive, and what happened to Ernst's mistress post-war...she apparently married 'Paul Wolf'...

And for anyone still interested, there is a photo of Ernst and his new wife, Elisabeth, with apparent wedding guests including Adolf Eichmann, visible by Googling: "Ernst Kaltenbrunner on his wedding day to Elisabeth Eder in ..."

Br. James

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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by hambubger » 07 Aug 2020 22:21

Thanks for sharing this. I'm currently on a mission to get a hold of the book, "Ernst Kaltenbrunner: Ideological Soldier of the Third Reich" (1984), the only real source fully dedicated to him.

For those interested, I did manage to find this thesis from 1966 that is 100+ pages:

https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/ ... sequence=1

Also, he looks pretty creepy in this photo:
ek.jpg
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"Look, if I had a ticket to Paradise and you didn't have one... I'd tear mine up and I'd go to Hell with you." -Jack Wagner, "Premonition" (1984)

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Hans1906
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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by Hans1906 » 08 Aug 2020 09:37

Good morning hambubger,

what you named "creepy" in the above photo were so called "Schmisse" from a "Mensur" from Kaltenbrunners years as student.

Quote:
"During his studies he became a member of the fraternity Arminia Graz in 1921, of which he was master ("Alter Herr") until his death."

Quote: "Mensur"
"A Mensur is a traditional, strictly regulated fencing match between two male members of different fraternities with sharpened blade weapons. Since the 16th century, the technical term "Mensur" (from Latin mensura, "measurement") has denoted a fixed distance between the "Paukanten". Mensur is fenced by many fraternities in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and a few in Belgium, Poland and the Baltic States, using either basket or bell mallets, depending on the location of the university. Today the "Paukanten" are largely protected from injury except for parts of their head and face. Any wounds and scars that may occur are called "Schmisse" (blows)."

Link: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensur_(S ... erbindung)

Hans1906

P.S. Several members of our family were jurisprudence students in the german city of Göttingen, also members of the
"Corps Frisia Göttingen": https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_Frisia_Göttingen
Frisia Göttingen is one of the still fencing student associations, still nowadays.

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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by hambubger » 08 Aug 2020 10:58

Hans1906 wrote:
08 Aug 2020 09:37
Good morning hambubger,

what you named "creepy" in the above photo were so called "Schmisse" from a "Mensur" from Kaltenbrunners years as student.

Quote:
"During his studies he became a member of the fraternity Arminia Graz in 1921, of which he was master ("Alter Herr") until his death."

Quote: "Mensur"
"A Mensur is a traditional, strictly regulated fencing match between two male members of different fraternities with sharpened blade weapons. Since the 16th century, the technical term "Mensur" (from Latin mensura, "measurement") has denoted a fixed distance between the "Paukanten". Mensur is fenced by many fraternities in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and a few in Belgium, Poland and the Baltic States, using either basket or bell mallets, depending on the location of the university. Today the "Paukanten" are largely protected from injury except for parts of their head and face. Any wounds and scars that may occur are called "Schmisse" (blows)."

Link: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensur_(S ... erbindung)

Hans1906

P.S. Several members of our family were jurisprudence students in the german city of Göttingen, also members of the
"Corps Frisia Göttingen": https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_Frisia_Göttingen
Frisia Göttingen is one of the still fencing student associations, still nowadays.
Thanks for the response, Hans. Guten Morgen to you, auch! I learn something new every day. The term "creepy" could probably be applied to about 90%+ of the Nazi hierarchy and be accurate. :) I wasn't sure if Kaltenbrunner got his scars from sporting or from barfighting. Now that's cleared up, thanks to you. Kaltenbrunner was like the Scarface of the Third Reich. 6'4 and not too lean. Definitely someone you wouldn't want to mess with. Kaltenbrunner has only a scant few resources available in English, which is why I'm trying to buy a book about him from 1984.
"Look, if I had a ticket to Paradise and you didn't have one... I'd tear mine up and I'd go to Hell with you." -Jack Wagner, "Premonition" (1984)

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Hans1906
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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by Hans1906 » 08 Aug 2020 11:57

Good morning hambubger,

from my childhood in germany, born in the year 1956, I remember many elder men with the so called "Schmisse",
they were everywere, at least within the people, who were in some way connected with the own family.

Some faces were very destroyed, I remember a gentleman named "Herr Kurland", a traveller for very expensive stationery at that time, who visited my grandparents' shop at least four times a year.
It was difficult for me as a small boy to distinguish the war wounds from the scales.
Scars were judged as earlier bravery, and I can't and don't want to judge that, that's not for me as a boy born in 1956.

Scarface, ("Narbengesicht") is not a very good comparison in this topic, that is Hollywood cinema nonsense.

Hans1906

P.S. Thanks for your warm greetings!

P.S.S. I remember my mother Ingrid, she was fascinated by pictures of knight cross bearers before 1945.
General Johannes Steinhoff was her fav. "Person" back then. She was more than impressed, to see Steinhoff in the german
news in later years.
steinhoff.jpg
The fascination of near death was certainly a driving force for my mother, the enthusiasm for such a hero., the totally burned face.
Just what you "learn" in younger years.
I have a few "Steinhoff" photos from the 1950s and 1960s in my collections, later...


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Br. James
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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by Br. James » 09 Aug 2020 14:19

Hi hambubger,

According to my out-of-print book-finder, there are copies of "Ernst Kaltenbrunner: Ideological Soldier of the Third Reich" by Peter R. Black (published by Princeton University Press, 1984) available, though they are expensive -- every copy I've seen costs over $300.00. Let me know if you'd like to have the locations of those copies.

Cheers,

Br. James

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Wessel
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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by Wessel » 09 Aug 2020 21:08

Amazon has copies for £99.

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Re: Kaltenbrunner family group

Post by Biber » 10 Aug 2020 14:25

There are an abundant number of library copies. You shouldn't have any trouble getting a copy on loan. If you reference OCLC# 9758161 when requesting, it'll go right to the book.

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