Ok lets put it in plain English. There was not any firing trials on a Tiger hulk in Normandy in June that could be referenced in July.
Can't make it any clearer than that.
Ok lets put it in plain English. There was not any firing trials on a Tiger hulk in Normandy in June that could be referenced in July.
The statement is crystal clear. 75% of the hits on the surveyed Panther had penetrated. That means for every 4 rounds 3 went in. I note that you do not deny the totals but you can't really because you are using the Sherman survey yourself which was done by the same people. The 75% penetration rate is right up there with your Sherman 95% rate.
Good for you. I am Irish by the way.paulrward wrote: ↑08 Aug 2020, 21:25
Well, during the war, the British took all of our work on cracking IJN Codes, promising to reciprocate by giving us
the technology to break the German Enigma system - After they got their hands on the JN 25 stuff, they clamped
down and refused to provide us with what they promised. Remember, the phrase " Perfidious Albion " didn't
come from nowhere....
But, it came out all right in the end, because we cut Britain off from the Manhattan Project, and made them ruin
their countryside with the Windscale Disaster.
I dunno. You say your an engineer so work it out for yourself.
Did they?
Ask the soldiers in Panzer-Brigade 106 & Panzer-Brigade 112.
You are= You'reMichael Kenny wrote: ↑08 Aug 2020, 21:56I dunno. You say your an engineer so work it out for yourself.
4 CLY tanks fully crewed that were penetrated at Villers = 9, KIA 12
Note: 1 Cromwell was short a crew member
SS 101 Tiger tanks fully crewed that were penetrated at Villers = 6, KIA 10
When you work out the KIA per tank number post it for us.
This must be a wind-up.paulrward wrote: ↑09 Aug 2020, 19:37this is a
photo of a Panther that had it's drive............. suspension, of a track knocked out, and was abandoned............ rather may have been disabled by a mine, an air attack, an artillery strike, or simply a
mechanical failure that the crew could not deal with in a combat situation................. A Panther had either it's suspension, a drive sprocket, or a track hit in combat, rendering the Panther immobile..........................The crew immediately evacuated the damaged tank, leaving it on the battlefield...............The Panther was recovered in place by the Allies, who used it for tests.
Indeed, exactly what Eisenhower was talking about is a mystery. Of course what gobbledygook a "reference" to "Tank Folder, page 922" is supposed to mean is beyond me. The "dispatch" was actually a Confidential Priority letter, originally dispatched by cable, from Eisenhower to Smith, filed Jul 022020B 44 (SHAEF General Staff, G-3 Division, O&E Section, File 470.8, RG 331, NARA II; the letter is recorded in the Eisenhower Papers dated as 5 July, "Eisenhower Mss. 1795, Eisenhower to Walter Bedell Smith, 5 July 1944", pp. 1970-1971) when Bedell Smith received it is unclear. The full text is actually:Michael Kenny wrote: ↑08 Aug 2020, 18:12I wonder what tests they are talking about because I do not know of any firing tests on a Tiger in Normandy.
The "reference" to the 899th is also spurious and is not found in the Eisenhower letter to Bedell Smith, nor in his 4 July cable to General Campbell, Chief of Ordnance. The 899th of course did not use the 76mm, but rather the 3" gun, and did not encounter any Panthers until 11 July at St Jean de Daye.Based upon actual tests against captured enemy tanks show [sic] that 76 millimeter will not penetrate Tiger in front or flanks and will not penetrate Panther except on flanks.
The trouble is apparently in type of shell since British 6 pounder with so called Sabot shell has better penetrating qualities than 76 millimeter even though it is smaller and has lower muzzle velocity. Moreover I am told the new 90 millimeter gun the War Department is placing in Sherman will not be effective against Tiger or Panthers [Eisenhower was referring to the 90mm Gun Motor Carriage M36].
As immediate stopgap, consider Ord Department should produce as an urgent project 76 millimeter shell of British Sabot type. Beyond this we should insist that new model tanks contain gun fully capable of dealing with heavily armored tanks. British 17 pounder does this and we can do the same.
Please have whole matter investigated probably with report ready for me on my return. I am considering sending Bull [Major General Harold Roe Bull, SHAEF G-3] home with our findings to make sure of our effectiveness in this important matter.
Oddly, in the second cable Ike states explicitly that they were "field tests", which deepens the mystery, given that there were ZERO 76mm guns in the field prior to 6 July 1944, when the ETOUSA G-3 authorized the shipment of 150 Medium Tanks M4A1 (76mm) W from Depot G-25 to the Continent. Nor where their any ETOUSA 76mm GMC M18 in the field prior to 6 July 1944; the earliest of those arrived with the 704th TD Battalion across UTAH on 13 July.Field tests against captured enemy tanks disclose that 76mm will not penetrate Tiger tank on front or flanks and will not penetrate Panther except on flanks.
Request immediate information on status of Sabot ammunition for 75mm and 76mm guns now in Theater.
First US Army worried about situation and demand ammunition with better penetration capabilities.
Weapon in new model tanks with capability if British 17 pounder in demand of Field Forces.
Statement of this possibility likewise required.