Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

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Ironmachine
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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by Ironmachine » 17 Aug 2020 10:45

ljadw wrote:Tanks are motorized,armored cavalry .
No. Tanks are a weapon, cavalry is a combat arm. Tanks are not cavalry just like a rifle is not infantry. Saying that tanks are "motorized, armored cavalry" is just as true as saying that they are motorized, armored artillery, or that a truck is motorized, non-armored cavalry. They are not. Tanks can be used to fullfil some of the tasks of cavalry, but that does not mean that they are cavalry. They can also fulfill roles of other combat branches.In fact, tanks were originally created not for exploitation, but to break through the trench lines of WWI, something you claim cavalry can not be used for.
ljadw wrote:And cavalry does not win battles,but is used for exploitation .
Throughout history, cavalry have won its fair share of victories. It certainly can be used for exploitation, but it has many other roles.
ljadw wrote:Tank battles are not decisive and the majority of tank losses are caused by non combat factors .
That has nothing to do with what I posted before, but:
1) Tank battles (if there is such a thing as "tank battles") can be as decisive (or not) as any other kind of battle;
2) Througth history most soldiers had been killed not by combat but by illness, so what?

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 17 Aug 2020 12:41

ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2020 08:25
The whole discussion is founded on the lies of the Rommel lobby,i e that Rommel was a brilliant general,that he could/would/should have won in NA if the Italians had delivered the ''needed '' supplies,and that this victory should/would/could have changed the outcome of WWII .
Topic was start by Mr urmel for to give some good historical datas and understands.

Topic was have nothing on topic Rommel.

Topic was become forum on
1. Gutteridge for to write gutteridge opinion on gutteridge opinion on gutteridge opinion because he like for everybody for to read gutteridge opinion and want everybody to agree on gutteridge opinion. Gutteridge opinion was never have historical datas or evidences.

2. Ljadw for to write complete tosh on many things.

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 17 Aug 2020 12:52

ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2020 06:55

If every day 1500 trucks were leaving the depots for the front and suddenly this number was doubled,it is obvious that the result would be an insoluble traffic chaos .
Who was write numbers on trucks was must suddenly double ?

Do you think Italy army mens was complete stupid ?

When Italy army mens was change number of trucks they can to make change on load and unload process can to change traffic control process.

It seems to me all ljadw words on number trucks and speeds and possibles was base on ljadw imagination tosh that Italy army mens was have capability on suddenly put more trucks on Afrika :lol: :lol: :lol: and was much stupid not to change any other things. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Complete tosh.

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by ljadw » 17 Aug 2020 13:38

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Aug 2020 10:44
Hi ljadw,

You say,

"The whole discussion is founded on the lies of the Rommel lobby,.....that he could/would/should have won in NA if the Italians had delivered the ''needed '' supplied"."

Can we have some examples, please?

Cheers,

Sid.
Look at the title of the thread : Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance.
There are no threads with as title : some thoughts on the French, US, British,etc Army's performance .
Thus : why the thread ?
Very simple and very obvious: because since 75 years at least there has been and still is a propaganda offensive from the German/Rommel lobby that has created the Rommel myth : Rommel the brilliant general .
The problem for these lobbies was that the brilliant general was defeated .What is the solution for such a problem : a solution that is as old as the street : you search for a scapegoat and the ideal scapegoat was Italy /Hitler. :why was the brilliant general defeated? Because of the inept and coward Italians and of the inept Hitler.
A new myth was born : the inept and coward Italian (captain Bertorelli ).
These two myths are tied :without the Rommel myth there would be no Italian myth .
And the opposite .
If Rommel had won,there would be no need for a scapegoat .
After the Marne, the scapegoat was Moltke/Hentsch . If the Marne was a success,there would be no need for a scapegoat .After November 11,there was the myth of the stab in the back,after 1945 the scapegoat was Hitler : without him it would not be cold in Russia in 1941 .
If Britain had lost, there would be a lot of scapegoats in Whitehall.If the Falklands war was a failure , Thatcher would be a scapegoat .
A defeat creates the need for a scapegoat,and as Rommel lost ,.....

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by Urmel » 17 Aug 2020 15:14

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
17 Aug 2020 12:41
ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2020 08:25
The whole discussion is founded on the lies of the Rommel lobby,i e that Rommel was a brilliant general,that he could/would/should have won in NA if the Italians had delivered the ''needed '' supplies,and that this victory should/would/could have changed the outcome of WWII .
Topic was start by Mr urmel for to give some good historical datas and understands.
Большое спасибо
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Aug 2020 15:27

Hi ljadw,

You didn't actually address my question, let alone answer it!

Again, you say,

"The whole discussion is founded on the lies of the Rommel lobby,.....that he could/would/should have won in NA if the Italians had delivered the ''needed '' supplies"."

Can we have some examples, please?

Cheers,

SId.

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by Ironmachine » 17 Aug 2020 15:40

ljadw wrote:Look at the title of the thread : Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance.
There are no threads with as title : some thoughts on the French, US, British,etc Army's performance .
Thus : why the thread ?
In fact, there are such threads, as you could have seen if you had simply bothered to look for them:
"Red Army casualties and performance": viewtopic.php?f=55&t=100893&p=887276&hi ... ce#p887276
"Evaluation of the Performance of the U.S. Army": viewtopic.php?f=54&t=78618&p=706131&hil ... e#p706131
"Poor performance of the French" (not only WWII, but still): viewtopic.php?f=22&t=58941&p=529808&hil ... e#p529808
"German and allied performance comparison": https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopi ... e#p368892
and a number of threads about the performance of different branches of the German military:
"The Combat Performance of the Fallschirmjäger": viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4839&p=38622&hilit ... e#p1919310
"Performance of Heer and Waffen-SS in the Bulge": viewtopic.php?f=50&t=194015&p=1742518&h ... #p1742518
and even generals:
"Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?": https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopi ... #p1671657
All those just from a quick seach for the word "performance" in title threads...

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Aug 2020 16:11

Ironmachine wrote:
17 Aug 2020 15:40
In fact, there are such threads, as you could have seen if you had simply bothered to look for them:
That it was so easy for you to rebut that asinine statement is why I have that poster on ignore.
I had forgotten how good a thread that was.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 17 Aug 2020 16:53

Richard Anderson wrote:
17 Aug 2020 16:11
Ironmachine wrote:
17 Aug 2020 15:40
In fact, there are such threads, as you could have seen if you had simply bothered to look for them:
That it was so easy for you to rebut that asinine statement is why I have that poster on ignore.
Yes. Much strange ideas.

He was make very tosh claim and then was write tosh explain what was be based on Italy army was have ASB technology for to make trucks suddenly be on Afrika but on same time be to stupid for to change load and unload process and traffic controls.

Before i was read what he was write on Italy army was stop Britain army on advance on february 1941.year. more complete tosh.

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by ljadw » 17 Aug 2020 21:15

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Aug 2020 15:27
Hi ljadw,

You didn't actually address my question, let alone answer it!

Again, you say,

"The whole discussion is founded on the lies of the Rommel lobby,.....that he could/would/should have won in NA if the Italians had delivered the ''needed '' supplies"."

Can we have some examples, please?

Cheers,

SId.
1 Rommel was presented as a military genius
2 Rommel was defeated .
3 As excuse for 2 ,the Italians were blamed .
2 and 3 are related .
Examples : Sadkovich :
Britain and the Italians in NA 1940-1942: ''But again the Italians were convenient scapegoats.
Understanding defeat:reappraising Italy's role in WW II : ''the Italians were appearing only as a scapegoat for Axis failures .
The racist comments from Kesselring and Westphal about the Italians .
In the Anglo-American movies Italians were represented as inept and coward . Germans were never presented as inept and coward.
The Italian defeat in operation Compass was falsely used to claim that the Italians were cowards,because most surrendered .But,when there were mass German ,British, French, Americans, Belgian capitulations, this was not used as a proof that Germans, French,Americans .. were cowards .
The refusal to use Italian sources,as the diaries of Cavallero,while German diaries were translated and used.
All this indicates,even proves a very strong anti Italian bias and the willingness to accept and use German anti Italian racist attacks .

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Aug 2020 22:24

Hi ljadw,

Again you are not addressing my question, let alone answering it.

It is a specific question relating to supplies, a subject you never once mentioned in either of your "replies".

Here it is again:

You say:

"The whole discussion is founded on the lies of the Rommel lobby,.....that he could/would/should have won in NA if the Italians had delivered the ''needed '' supplies"."

Can we have some examples, please?


Cheers,

SId.

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by Thumpalumpacus » 18 Aug 2020 01:53

ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2020 08:07
About Chuikov : he said that he needed more ammunition.Why ? Because there was big fighting against the German infantry which tried to capture Stalingrad .Thus his ammunition needs were caused by the enemy .And, when the fighting decreased, did he still need more ammunition ?
And, diid Chuikov detailed how much more ammunition he wanted ? In % ,or in absolute figures ?
Militaries are made for fighting. "Killing people and breaking things" is the operative phrase. You need supplies, including ammunition to do that.

Of course, once the fighting dies down, supply needs drop. No one is arguing otherwise. However, a front-line force, even when not engaged in combat, must be supplied in order to retain combat efficiency. Lack of fuel at an airbase, even one not devoted to combat ops, sees pilot skills deteriorate. Transport needs maintenance whether there is an active battle or not, in order to both shift forces and also keep the motor pool available for ops that might break out.

It should be noted that the Germans surrendered in Stalingrad in large part due to supply deficiencies.

As for Chuikov, he was on a phone call. He didn't throw down numbers. He simply said "more ammunition". That's a fighter's language -- short, sweet, and to the point.

Look at the Allied drive after Falaise: they weren't stopped by battle at the end of August, they were stopped because of supply shortfalls.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Aug 2020 10:44
Hi ljadw,

You say,

"The whole discussion is founded on the lies of the Rommel lobby,.....that he could/would/should have won in NA if the Italians had delivered the ''needed '' supplied"."

Can we have some examples, please?

Cheers,

Sid.
I haven't mentioned Rommel once, and while he was a good general, both sides had better.

No general, however, is exempt from the demands of supplying his troops.

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by ljadw » 18 Aug 2020 06:35

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Aug 2020 22:24
Hi ljadw,

Again you are not addressing my question, let alone answering it.

It is a specific question relating to supplies, a subject you never once mentioned in either of your "replies".

Here it is again:

You say:

"The whole discussion is founded on the lies of the Rommel lobby,.....that he could/would/should have won in NA if the Italians had delivered the ''needed '' supplies"."

Can we have some examples, please?


Cheers,

SId.
i bite .
Quora :
Question :would Rommel have prevailed in NA if Hitler had provided him with the needed supplies and reinforcements ?
Answer from February 18 2018
Yes,..... but that was always going to be problematic,because many of the ships bound for NA from Italy with German supplies and reinforcements were met by British submarines perfectly positioned to sink them ...
Rommel complained that his Italian ally was not delivering him as promised,and in fact the Italians outnumbered the German troops in NA but were not as skilled .


Here,you have it : Rommel would have won ,but the Italians did not deliver him the needed supplies .
The only correct thing in the answer is the fact that the Italians outnumbered the Germans .

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by ljadw » 18 Aug 2020 06:37

Ironmachine wrote:
17 Aug 2020 15:40
ljadw wrote:Look at the title of the thread : Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance.
There are no threads with as title : some thoughts on the French, US, British,etc Army's performance .
Thus : why the thread ?
In fact, there are such threads, as you could have seen if you had simply bothered to look for them:
"Red Army casualties and performance": viewtopic.php?f=55&t=100893&p=887276&hi ... ce#p887276
"Evaluation of the Performance of the U.S. Army": viewtopic.php?f=54&t=78618&p=706131&hil ... e#p706131
"Poor performance of the French" (not only WWII, but still): viewtopic.php?f=22&t=58941&p=529808&hil ... e#p529808
"German and allied performance comparison": https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopi ... e#p368892
and a number of threads about the performance of different branches of the German military:
"The Combat Performance of the Fallschirmjäger": viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4839&p=38622&hilit ... e#p1919310
"Performance of Heer and Waffen-SS in the Bulge": viewtopic.php?f=50&t=194015&p=1742518&h ... #p1742518
and even generals:
"Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?": https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopi ... #p1671657
All those just from a quick seach for the word "performance" in title threads...
Apples and oranges .

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Re: Some thoughts on the Italian Army's performance

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Aug 2020 07:18

Hi ljadw,

No, you don't "bite". You have avoided doing so while pretending otherwise.

Is your opinion based entirely on an unlinked, effectively anonymous, unsourced reply on Quora by someone who could even be you yourself?

What makes it worse is that even this quote does not say what you claim it does!

You are now being deliberately evasive.

So, I ask for the fourth time;

"The whole discussion is founded on the lies of the Rommel lobby,.....that he could/would/should have won in NA if the Italians had delivered the ''needed '' supplies"."

Can we have some examples, please?


Cheers,

Sid.

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