Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

[Mangrove]

For more detailed breakdown of the Finnish anti-aircraft artillery claims from June and July 1944, please consult following anti-aircraft regiment downed and damaged claim tables:

Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 15 (Aun.R & IV AK | June 1944)
Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 15 (IV AK | July 1944)

Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 15 (III AK | June 1944)
Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 15 (III AK | July 1944)

[tramonte]

Soviet daily combat reports of the fighter units at the Finnish front (by 9.6.1944) confirm that they lost at least 34 La-5 fighters in air combat or shot down by enemy AA during the 9.6.- 17.7.1944 over Karelian Isthmus, so their accumulated losses of La-5´s must have been higher than just 30 at the Finnish front during 1943-1944. The damage and accident losses were at the same period at the same front recorded as 28 La-5 according by Soviet records. (Raunio:"Lavothskin La 5 Suomen rintamalla" - Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen lehti 2/2014, p. 11-12)

Soviet fighter regiments equipped with La-5 at Finnish front on 9.6.1944 were: 159, 191, 195, 400, 401, 415, 450, 706 IAP and 3,4,10, 11 GIAP. The total losses of these units were as high as 470 during the years 1943-1944 (including combat losses, accidents and all other causes). The portion of Finnish front of these losses would be around 150-160 according to Jukka Raunio (cited article above). If the amount of accidents and othern non-combat losses of total losses would be about 50 % as it is in the case of Finnish aircraft losses, this makes the number of combat losses of the above listed La-5 equipped Soviet air units at Finnish front in the years 1943-1944 being somewhere around 80. Compared to Finnish claims against La-5´s (215 in total, of which 200 credited to Finnish fighters) that would make the possible oveclaim ratio being somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1.

I combed the data of FAF claims of La-5 during 1943-44 having claims of units here....

24th fighter squadron..............114
34th fighter squadron............... 58
26th fighter squadron.................4
28th fighter squadron................ 5
32th fighter squadron...............14
------------------------------
FAF claims ..........................195

Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey..........12 ( from 17 June to 17 July 44 in Karelian Isthmus)

AA-units known having 11 La-5 claims during period of 9 - 30 June 1944. No idea how many AA claims before June 44 and July-August 44. Perhaps some 10?

Of these 207 claims of pilots and 11-21 claims of AA units more than half during period from 9 June to 17 July 1944. Finns and Germans had total 104 claims just in Karelian Isthmus + FAF units in Karelia 8 (June-August 44). Total 112. With claims of AA units total about around 130 La-5s.

When comparing La-5 likely losses before 9 June 44 (and after 17 June 44), according Soviet sources studied by Rautio, we can estimate combat losses been around ~45 La-5s while Finnish pilots had claims of 95 La-5. So the over claiming would have been around 1:2, while during period of 9 June - 17 July 44 almost 1:4. And there is indeed clear logic on it. When air battles were smaller with few aircraft taking part on it pilots normally over claimed less.

When it comes to fighter vs fighter air battles in summer of 1944 we instead than estimating 1:2 or 1:3 over claim should focus chance of Finnish (and German) fighter pilots having as high as even 1:4 over claim process going on. And of course: if Soviet official records are by any means reliable.

[Mangrove]

AA-units known having 11 La-5 claims during period of 9 - 30 June 1944. No idea how many AA claims before June 44 and July-August 44. Perhaps some 10?

Here all accepted La-5 victory claims by the Finnish anti-aircraft artillery from 24 June 1941 to 7 September 1944 according to a Finnish Air Force document dated 9 November 1944.

1) 17 May 1944. 5. Rannikkoilmatorjuntakomppania (5.RIt.K).
2) 12 June 1944. 69. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (69.Kev.It.Ptri). Shot down near Suulajärvi airbase.
3) 13 June 1944. 11. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (11.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed near Liikola.
4) 15 June 1944. Panssari-ilmatorjuntapatteri (Ps.It.Ptri). Wreck was found 0.5 kilometres south of the firing position at Liikoila.
5) 20 June 1944. 40. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (40.Kev.It.Ptri). Shot down near Syväri / Svir.
6) 22 June 1944. 34. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (34.Kev.It.Ptri). Shot down near Mäkriä-Uukujärvi road.
7) 22 June 1944. I/6. Kevyt rannikkoilmatorjuntapatteri (I/6.Kev.RIt.Ptri).
8) 22 June 1944. 11. Kevyt rannikkoilmatorjuntapatteri (11.Kev.RIt.Ptri).
9) 23 June 1944. 33. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (33.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed south of Mäkriä.
10) 25 June 1944. 11. Kevyt rannikkoilmatorjuntapatteri (11.Kev.RIt.Ptri).
11) 26 June 1944. 2. Rautatieilmatorjuntakonekiväärikomppania (2.Raut.It.KKK). Engaged near Vitele, later reported to have been crashed.
12) 27 June 1944. 9. Rannikkoilmatorjuntakomppania (9.RIt.K).

13) 11 July 1944. 7. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (7.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed behind Finnish lines 4 kilometres SW from the firing position near Vuosalmi/Äyräpää.
14) 11 July 1944. 31. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (31.Kev.It.Ptri). Plane crashed behind Soviet lines near Koirinoja.
15) 12 July 1944. 33. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (33.Kev.It.Ptri).
16) 13 July 1944. 34. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (34.Kev.It.Ptri).
17) 29 July 1944. 38. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (38.Kev.It.Ptri).
18) 30 July 1944. Kotkan ilmatorjunta / Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 2 (It.R.2). Crashed to the sea near Lavansaari.

19) 1 August 1944. 38. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (38.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed to the Soviet side while on fire.
20) 4 August 1944. Kotkan ilmatorjunta / Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 2 (It.R.2). Fell to the sea c. 3 kilometres SW of Suur-Mustasaari.
21) 25 August 1944. II/11. Rannikkoilmatorjuntakomppania (II/11.RIt.K). Fell to the lake north of Valamo/Ristisaari.

[mars]

When it comes to fighter vs fighter air battles in summer of 1944 we instead than estimating 1:2 or 1:3 over claim should focus chance of Finnish (and German) fighter pilots having as high as even 1:4 over claim process going on. And of course: if Soviet official records are by any means reliable.

I guess it depends on how original of these source were, I would always trust reports of their own losses submitted by units (not that much about combat claims), they have no motive to lie since they had to let their superior know the status of every single one of the air planes under their command

[Juha Tompuri]

I guess it depends on how original of these source were, I would always trust reports of their own losses submitted by units (not that much about combat claims), they have no motive to lie since they had to let their superior know the status of every single one of the air planes under their command

If I have understood correctly, if a damaged plane crash landed on some Soviet air field and was a total write off, the Soviets didn't count the plane lost in combat. Maybe this explains some differents between Finnish vs. Soviet statistics?

[tramonte]

I guess it depends on how original of these source were, I would always trust reports of their own losses submitted by units (not that much about combat claims), they have no motive to lie since they had to let their superior know the status of every single one of the air planes under their command

If I have understood correctly, if a damaged plane crash landed on some Soviet air field and was a total write off, the Soviets didn't count the plane lost in combat. Maybe this explains some differents between Finnish vs. Soviet statistics?

These cases where aircraft crash landed on some Soviet air field and was total written off while not counted as combat lost aircraft are of course existing but i doubt could these cases change the big picture much at all. If we add +5% then we must remember to subtract even more cases where aircraft was lost in combat without being shot down by enemy pilots or AA units.

When it comes to losses of 13th Air Army of VVS in Karelian Isthmus it had report of lost 160 aircraft in June 1944. 13th Air Army had total ~13 300 sorties during period 9 June - 30 June. So the loss rate of it was on average 1.2% of sorties. During the whole year 1944 VVS was reported to have had 817 064 sorties with combat losses of 7 861 aircraft, loss rate 0.96%. 13th Air Army of course had on average likely little bit more intensive and fiece air battles during June 44 and likely without so called night harassment aircraft sorties (with very low loss rate). So in fact combat loss rate of 13th Air Army was well balanced with average VVS day time combat losses in Eastern Front during 1944.

[tramonte]

Soviet daily combat reports of the fighter units at the Finnish front (by 9.6.1944) confirm that they lost at least 34 La-5 fighters in air combat or shot down by enemy AA during the 9.6.- 17.7.1944 over Karelian Isthmus, so their accumulated losses of La-5´s must have been higher than just 30 at the Finnish front during 1943-1944. The damage and accident losses were at the same period at the same front recorded as 28 La-5 according by Soviet records. (Raunio:"Lavothskin La 5 Suomen rintamalla" - Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen lehti 2/2014, p. 11-12)

I have tried to study reports of 275 IAD, 2GIAK and 7 VA units which used La-5s. Many losses were reported as "did not return from combat mission". Was those 28 other La-5 losses from none combat missions? In Karelia 7 VA lost 3 La-5s during whole July 44 (combat losses) but 6 others were written offs (3) after repair try or just because aircraft was worn out(3). Checking all fighters of 7 VA it lost in combat 22 (whole July) but 36 more were written offs in depots or just because fighter aircraft was dangerously worn out. So just 38% of all fighter aircraft wastage was combat losses. When it comes to Il-2s 7 VA lost 61 in combat but only 13 in other way. Total wastage 74 Il-2.

It's pretty clear that most of Soviet fighter aircraft losses (all written offs) were not combat losses especially in rather "peaceful" Karelian and Karelian Istmus fronts during 1943-44. Those single engine combat aircraft had rather short life cycle even without any combat losses.

[tramonte]

Of the 397 combaf claims of Finnish and Kuhlmey fighters in June 1944 only 146 are those which can be confirmed with some certainty - similar pattern as in the combat claims of Luftwaffe in North Finland/Norway area. (Pohjoinen ilmasota, s. 146 - there will be considerable Finnish overclaiming even if we take in account the possible Soviet "anomaly" of combat-damaged and forced-landed planes ending up to non-combat losses.

The overclaim ratio about 3:1 was nothing remarkable or exceptional - it was fairly common in WW2...

These figures 146 versus 397 are actually flattering pilots. As June 1944 montly loss report of 13 VA was suggesting there were at least 35 aircraft put on group "shot down by AA" while 89 "lost in air combat". Ratio 1:2.5. If those rest 36 "not returned" follow the same ratio we should estimate 5/7 were air combat losses and 2/7 shot down by AA. And there was always chance that some combat losses were actually accidents as i do believe. Not all combat losses were caused by enemy pilots and AA units.

5/7 of 160 is 114 and i don't believe the rest of losses (some 30, Baltic Fleet?) were only air combat losses either. Luftwaffe claim list is suggesting that II. /JG 54 (excluding 6.staffeln) had 92 claims in Finland during 17 - 30 June while Wikipedia lists of Finnish claim 9-30 June in Karelian Istmus actually 311. Besides Finns had 16 claims during period of 1 - 8 June. I have understood that loss report of 13 VA (160 aircraft) was whole June, not just 9 - 30 June 1944. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

June 1944 was full of days were not even 1/4 of Pe-2/Il-4 claims by Finnish and German pilots are backed by Soviet own loss reports.

[tramonte]

I have studied Baltic Fleet Chronicle (https://www.prlib.ru/en/item/1288877) with help of Yandex-translation and found some information of which i'm not sure are they double (telling same figures twice). This is from 21 June.

first menition:

"117 Yak-7 and Yak-9 and 70 LAGG-3 (9, iap, 12 and 13 iacp) attacked enemy ships southwest of Ruonti Island, dropping on them 384 FAB-100 and 338 PC-82. 2 landing craft, a speedboat, and transport, 2 patrol ships,a speedboat, 2 minesweepers, and 2 landing craft were sunk and damaged. Four LAGG-3s (11 IAP) made aerial photographs of the results of the attack of Il-2 aircraft. Two Il-2s were shot down by anti-aircraft artillery fire from enemy ships . The cover planes in the area of the attack were engaged in a dogfight with six FV-190 and four Me-109s; three FV-190s were shot down. Our losses are one LAGG-3."

second:

"At 1515 hours, the enemy ships disappeared, and the batteries were not active in the landing area. (Apx. 11242, ll. 11-14;arch. 23364, ll. 84 -86; case 5587, ll. 19, 25, 32, 35, 41, 51.) 57 Il-2 aircraft (8 gshap, 35 shakp, 47 shap and 7 gpshakp), operating in groups from 4 to 16, under the cover of 16 La-5 (4 giap), seven Yak-9 and 30 LAGG-3 (9, 11 iap) from 16 h. 10 m. to 18 h. 17 m. in the area of Piisaari island - Cape Ristniemi attacked 2 transport, 3 landing craft,2 torpedo boats, a minesweeper and enemy boats, using up 221 FAB-100 and 196 RS-82. According to the reports of the crews, they were sunk 2 landing craft, transport, 4 dinghies, a minesweeper damaged anda fuel depot burned on Bjerke Island.
One Il-2 was shot down by enemy anti-aircraft artillery fire. In aerial combat with six FV-190s and With four Me-109s, our cover planes shot down three enemy samolets and lost one LAGG-3. (Arch. 23364, ll. 86 -91.) 56 La-5 aircraft (4 giap and 10 giacp) from 8: 48 a.m. to 24: 00 a.m.
they covered our ships in the Vyborg Bay. (Arch. 23364, ll. 87, 91.)"

At least numbers of Il-2s shot down by AA where different (first: two shot down by AA of boats. Then later: one Il-2 shot down by AA. So was there one, two or three Il-2s shot down by AA? And was there one or two LaGG-3 shot down in air combat?

Then the La-5 case (Yandex-translation):

"16 La-5 aircraft (3 giap) covered our torpedo boats in the Vyborg Bay from 9.16 a.m. to 12.08 a.m. At 9: 15 a.m. in the district
Koivisto they were fighting with enemy planes FV-190 and shot them down. At 9.45 a.m., in the area of Piisaari Island , four of our La-5 aircraft were shot down in a battle with four FV-190s.(Arch. 12262, l. 111; arch. 11238, l. 66, 73, 117; case 5587, l. 39; case 5597, l. 6; arch. 11975, ll. 11, 12; arch. 11241, ll. 103, 104; arch. 23364, ll. 84, 85.)"

Russian text:

"16 самолетов Ла-5 (3 гиап) с 9 ч. 16 м. до 12 ч. 08 м. прикрывали наши торпедные катера в Выборгском заливе. В 9 ч. 15 м. в районе
Қойвисто они вели бой с чеприятельскими самолетами ФВ-190 и сбили их. В 9 ч. 45 м. в районе острова Пийсаари в бою
c четырьмя ФВ-190 были сбиты четыре наших самолета Ла-5. (Арх. 12262, л. 111; арх. 11238, лл. 66, 73, 117; дело 5587, л. 39;
дело 5597, л. 6; арх. 11975, лл. 11, 12; арх. 11241, лл. 103, 104; арх. 23364,лл. 84, 85.)" (page 438)


Is it confirmed by VVS-KBF sources that they lost 4 La-5s in aircombat, 21 June 1944 morning near Piisaari?

[igorr]

Chronicle has no doubles. It describe events in chronological order and place by place.
So, firstly 2 Il-2 was shot down by Flaks in period 07.30-10.25 SW Ruonti. Also one LAGG-3 lost there in fight with Fw.190 and Me.109.
Then La-5 lost 4 of their strength in 09.45 near Piisaari.
Then Il-2 lost one machine to AA in 11.30-15.08 while attacking batteries and ships in Biorkosund.
And last, one Il-2 was downed by flaks in 16.10-18.17 again near Biorkosund, also one LAGG-3 by enemy fighters.
All losses are 4 Il-2, 4 La-5 and 2 LAGG-3.
From my experience it is not necessary cause in reality was same as stated by pilots. Il-2 "shot down by AA" may be in reality victim of fighters. You need to analyze description for actions if you need to know all exactly. But this is not the case, Chronicle gave no details. Only archive in Gatchina can help.

[tramonte]

AA-units known having 11 La-5 claims during period of 9 - 30 June 1944. No idea how many AA claims before June 44 and July-August 44. Perhaps some 10?

Here all accepted La-5 victory claims by the Finnish anti-aircraft artillery from 24 June 1941 to 7 September 1944 according to a Finnish Air Force document dated 9 November 1944.

1) 17 May 1944. 5. Rannikkoilmatorjuntakomppania (5.RIt.K).
2) 12 June 1944. 69. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (69.Kev.It.Ptri). Shot down near Suulajärvi airbase.
3) 13 June 1944. 11. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (11.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed near Liikola.
4) 15 June 1944. Panssari-ilmatorjuntapatteri (Ps.It.Ptri). Wreck was found 0.5 kilometres south of the firing position at Liikoila.
5) 20 June 1944. 40. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (40.Kev.It.Ptri). Shot down near Syväri / Svir.
6) 22 June 1944. 34. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (34.Kev.It.Ptri). Shot down near Mäkriä-Uukujärvi road.
7) 22 June 1944. I/6. Kevyt rannikkoilmatorjuntapatteri (I/6.Kev.RIt.Ptri).
8) 22 June 1944. 11. Kevyt rannikkoilmatorjuntapatteri (11.Kev.RIt.Ptri).
9) 23 June 1944. 33. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (33.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed south of Mäkriä.
10) 25 June 1944. 11. Kevyt rannikkoilmatorjuntapatteri (11.Kev.RIt.Ptri).
11) 26 June 1944. 2. Rautatieilmatorjuntakonekiväärikomppania (2.Raut.It.KKK). Engaged near Vitele, later reported to have been crashed.
12) 27 June 1944. 9. Rannikkoilmatorjuntakomppania (9.RIt.K).

13) 11 July 1944. 7. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (7.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed behind Finnish lines 4 kilometres SW from the firing position near Vuosalmi/Äyräpää.
14) 11 July 1944. 31. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (31.Kev.It.Ptri). Plane crashed behind Soviet lines near Koirinoja.
15) 12 July 1944. 33. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (33.Kev.It.Ptri).
16) 13 July 1944. 34. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (34.Kev.It.Ptri).
17) 29 July 1944. 38. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (38.Kev.It.Ptri).
18) 30 July 1944. Kotkan ilmatorjunta / Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 2 (It.R.2). Crashed to the sea near Lavansaari.

19) 1 August 1944. 38. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (38.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed to the Soviet side while on fire.
20) 4 August 1944. Kotkan ilmatorjunta / Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 2 (It.R.2). Fell to the sea c. 3 kilometres SW of Suur-Mustasaari.
21) 25 August 1944. II/11. Rannikkoilmatorjuntakomppania (II/11.RIt.K). Fell to the lake north of Valamo/Ristisaari.

According Soviet sources their lost fighter aircraft (not just La-5s) shot down by AA in Karelian Isthmus, June-July 1944:

13.6.44: Yak-9
15.6.44: La-5
11.7.44 Yak-9

Lost La-5s (in air combat, AA or what ever combat reason, according reports of 13 VA + VVS KBF) in Karelian Isthmus/Bay of Vyborg:

14.6.44:1
15.6.44:1 (see above)
18.6.44: 2
19.6.44: 2
20.6.44: 2
21.6.44: 4 (all in Bay of Vyborg, VVS KBF)
23.6.44: 1
26.6.44: 2
28.6.44: 3
30.06.44: 1
01.07.44: 1
02.07.44: 1
03.07.44: 2 ( of which 1 La-5 of VVS KBF: "did not return")
10.07.44: 2
11.07.44: 1

VVS KBF lost 3 La-5s in Estonia (Rakvere-Kahula), 15 June: 2 in air combat with FW-190s and 1 shot down by German FLAK.

Karelian Front ( 7th Air Army) documented 3 La-5 losses during period of 9 June - 17 July 44:

09.07.44: 1 (257th )
12.07.44: 1 (257th)
16.7.44: 1 (air combat)

[tramonte]

It's quote interesting to compare daily Soviet aircraft losses during period of 9 - 30 June 44. Every day when II. /JG 54 had lot of claims VVS/PVO/VVS KBF had lots of true losses. But not as much when FiAF had lots of claims while II. /JG 54 quite few.

Day....... FiAF claims.... II. /JG 54 claims... Soviet losses
17.6..........23....................12...........................20
18.6..........10.....................6..............................7
19.6..........19....................24...........................28
20.6..........49......................9...........................19
21.6..........10....................12...........................20
23.6..........28......................7.............................9
26.6..........25......................5.............................7
28.6..........44..................... 5...........................15

Please correct if those Soviet loss figures are not correct. They are based on loss reports taken from Pamyat Naroda, PVO, 13 VA, adjusted with 277 ShAD and 281 ShAD losses and VVS KBF (chronicle). Losses included both AA, air combat and "not returned" + few accidents.

My personal opinion after comparing claims to losses is that pilots of II./JG54 had relatively less "air" in their air victories than Finnish pilots had. For instance in 20 June Finns had 6 Pe-2 and 2 Il-4 claims but i haven't found any data of Soviet bomber losses during that day but one Pe-2 shot down in Porga, Svir (Syväri). Total 16 Soviet aircraft lost in aircombat or "not returned" during 20 June. Next day, 21 June, 39 less Finnish claims, 3 more German claims and Soviet losses: 15 in aircombat (6 in Vyborg Bay) and 9 Il-2 shot down in aircombat near Vyborg/Karelian Istmus.

26 June, 25 claims of FiAF but just 7 Soviet losses. 28 June FiAF very high number, 44 claims while Soviet losses 15 of which 14 related (maximum) to aircombat.

There are some interesting details suggesting quite high FiAF high over claiming. In 26 June Finnish pilots had 6 Il-4 claims - Soviet losses 1 Il-4. Finnish pilots claimed 11 La-5s - Soviet losses 1 La-5. I have found only 3 days: 15-16 June + 2 July when FiAF claims were quite near Soviet combat losses but mostly 1:4 over claiming seems to have been reality among Finnish pilots in June 1944.

[tramonte]

Edit: VVS KBF lost one Il-4 in Porga, Svir 20 June 44. No Pe-2/Il-4/Tu-2 losses during that day in Karelian Isthmus According Soviet sources and not aircrew perdonal losses of 276,113 and 334 BAD.

[lemke_w_w_s_d_m]

Hello everybody
Once I studied this battle, based on data from the Memory of the People website (Память Народа).
In total, in June 1944, on the Karelian Isthm, the 13th Air Force (including the 2nd GIAK Air Defense) lost 165 aircraft downed and missing. There, the Red Banner Baltic Fleet Air Force lost 25 aircraft shot down and missing. A total of 190 aircraft were lost, of which 134 were shot down in aerial battles, and 56 Bali aircraft were shot down by anti-aircraft guns and missing.

Chronology of events in Russian:
https://proza.ru/2019/04/11/461
https://proza.ru/2019/06/02/846
https://proza.ru/2019/06/30/592
https://proza.ru/2019/07/25/573
https://proza.ru/2019/07/25/586
https://proza.ru/2019/08/27/1545

[Topspeed]

I wonder if the russian politruks were always correct in their markings ?