Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
gebhk
Member
Posts: 2623
Joined: 25 Feb 2013, 21:23

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#106

Post by gebhk » 18 Aug 2020, 19:26

I do not think that Socrates was suggesting that the captain of a ship or a bus driver were suitable to run a country. I think that what he was suggesting is that you look at the set of skills that would be required to be a bus driver or run a country and then you pick a person with those skills.
Sorry, but all I pick up from the parable is that only seamen should be allowed to appoint a ships captain and only politicians should be allowed to pick a ruler and that, by extension, both these occupations are merely exercises in technical management. I disagree because whether it is a ship of the sea or the ship of state, we, the passengers should have a say in, for example, where the ship goes, what interests it serves and how its passengers should be treated.

As regards Churchill, it is hardly the preserve of amateurs to make mistakes when predicting the future. Without in any way singling him out, in much the same way, the opinion of Hugh Elles, MGO 1934-1938, that tanks had had their day, was a significant factor in the quality and quantity of tanks the British Army disposed of in 1939. Elles, a career officer and graduate of the Royal Military Academy and Staff College with a track record as commander of the Tank Corps in WW1 and the Tank Corps Training Centre afterwards, cannot be considered in any way an amateur. Nor was he a fool.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#107

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020, 22:56

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Aug 2020, 01:03
Poland, Hungary and Slovakia joined a liberal democratic European Union in the 1990s. Since then the two former seem to be drifting away from liberal democracy.
And this isn't also true for countries such as the US--until at least this November? ;)


Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#108

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Sep 2020, 03:53

Hi Futurist,

Worryingly, Yes.

It is clear that Trump doesn't believe in Liberal Democracy.

The question in November is, how much of the US population feels the same way, or has just used him as a temporary vehicle for its frustration with "politics as usual". They have now seen what he is really like. It is now, to borrow a phrase from the Republicans of the Lincoln Project, "Trump, or America"?

Cheers,

Sid.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#109

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020, 04:33

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Sep 2020, 03:53
Hi Futurist,

Worryingly, Yes.

It is clear that Trump doesn't believe in Liberal Democracy.

The question in November is, how much of the US population feels the same way, or has just used him as a temporary vehicle for its frustration with "politics as usual". They have now seen what he is really like. It is now, to borrow a phrase from the Republicans of the Lincoln Project, "Trump, or America"?

Cheers,

Sid.
According to FiveThirtyEight (it's a political predictions website that uses polling and statistics to make predictions), our odds of having a new President in January 2021 are around 75%. :)

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2623
Joined: 25 Feb 2013, 21:23

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#110

Post by gebhk » 17 Sep 2020, 12:00

a temporary vehicle for its frustration with "politics as usual".
Arguably, much the same can be said about the Brexit vote. Unfortunately, it is unlikely that the UK will be able to get out of the consequences, which look increasingly grim, any time soon. I have a deep-seated suspicion that there is no easy exit from the consequences of the Trump election victory either :( .

Given that few people seriously considered either Brexit or Trump would get the vote, I am not a little sceptical of learned predictions in this area :wink: .

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#111

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020, 21:11

Futurist wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 22:56
Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Aug 2020, 01:03
Poland, Hungary and Slovakia joined a liberal democratic European Union in the 1990s. Since then the two former seem to be drifting away from liberal democracy.
And this isn't also true for countries such as the US--until at least this November? ;)

Does any evidence of electoral tampering exist, or were the elections falsified? So how come Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia aren't democracies anymore?
Or "drifting away from liberal democracy" simply means that we, the people, are unwilling to vote for other people's pet ideologies?

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#112

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Sep 2020, 21:23

Hi wm,

Just to be clear, are you saying liberal democracy is among "other people's pet ideologies"?

Cheers,

Sid.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#113

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020, 21:30

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Sep 2020, 21:23
Hi wm,

Just to be clear, are you saying liberal democracy is among "other people's pet ideologies"?

Cheers,

Sid.
Yes, he probably is.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#114

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020, 21:31

wm wrote:
17 Sep 2020, 21:11
Futurist wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 22:56
Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Aug 2020, 01:03
Poland, Hungary and Slovakia joined a liberal democratic European Union in the 1990s. Since then the two former seem to be drifting away from liberal democracy.
And this isn't also true for countries such as the US--until at least this November? ;)

Does any evidence of electoral tampering exist, or were the elections falsified? So how come Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia aren't democracies anymore?
Or "drifting away from liberal democracy" simply means that we, the people, are unwilling to vote for other people's pet ideologies?
Yeah, there are liberal democracies and illiberal democracies. Illiberal democracies are defined here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiberal ... of%20civil

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#115

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020, 21:59

So we, the people, have no say in this.
We have to vote as the liberal democrats say, or otherwise, we will be declared the bad guys?

Actually, that was the axiom of Nazism and communism, that the learned guys informed by science knew better than we, the people.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#116

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020, 22:00

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Sep 2020, 21:23
Hi wm,

Just to be clear, are you saying liberal democracy is among "other people's pet ideologies"?
Of course, it's a weasel term that means nothing.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#117

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020, 22:06

wm wrote:
17 Sep 2020, 21:59
So we, the people, have no say in this.
We have to vote as the liberal democrats say, or otherwise, we will be declared the bad guys?

Actually, that was the axiom of Nazism and communism, that the learned guys informed by science knew better than we, the people.
Yep, sometimes the elite knows what's best for the people better than the people themselves do. At least, that was many people's impression, which is why the US currently has the President that it has--specifically because a lot of people here were fed up with our elite and wanted to stick the middle finger to them! :(

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#118

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020, 22:09

Do you have any examples?

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#119

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020, 22:12

wm wrote:
17 Sep 2020, 22:09
Do you have any examples?
I gave you one; the 2016 election in the US.

As for the elite knowing what's best for the people better than the people themselves, I was being sarcastic here. Basically, this is what the elite themselves believe, but I personally don't necessarily agree with them.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#120

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Sep 2020, 22:31

Hi wm,

That clarifies matters greatly.

It tends to confirm my original observation: "Poland, Hungary and Slovakia joined a liberal democratic European Union in the 1990s. Since then the two former seem to be drifting away from liberal democracy."

Cheers,

Sid.

Post Reply

Return to “Poland 1919-1945”