Soviet Naval Battles

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igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by igorr » 25 Sep 2020 05:13

Correct name CNR-1468. It was blown in Eupatoria, but not 11.4.44, only 17/4/44 according to SeeTra Chef Schwarzmeer.
At 21.30 TKA Nr. 14 and 104 put in sea from Skadowsk and at 23.38 they fired 3 torpedoes against one MFP. Also they see a cutter near MFP but didn't fired upon them. Claim was 1 sunk MFP. From german side there was F.583 on Vorpostenstreife. In 23.00 attack of MTB 10 miles NO Ak-Metschet. Attack repelled with strong fire from all guns. MTB make smoke and retreat. No words about torpedoes.
11.4.44 from Skadowsk two groups put to sea: TKA Nr. 86 with rockets and conv. TKA Nrs. 14 and 85 in one, TKA Nrs. 94 and 104 in second. In 23.50 first group meets enemy (2 MFP and many little crafts). After maneuvering in 00.15 TKA Nr. 14 claims one MFP sunk with 1 torpedo, TKA Nr. 86 - one cutter sunk with RS-projectiles. No losses from soviet side. Actually this was again F.583, this time evacuating pioniere after they blows port of Ak-Metschet. They headed Sewastopol, enemy encountered 23.20 in point 45.17 - 32.41. Attack repelled with strong defensive fire, no losses on MFP.
F.122 with F.561 leaves Ak-Metschet 15.15 and headed Sewastopol. Looks like they reported no hostiles.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 06 Apr 2021 12:02

Some interesting updates for mine-warfare in Baltic (Gulf of Finland) that, one very recent, take after some digging in Ultra, Q&A and new re-assessment in tsushima.su.

1) Loss of German submarine chasers UJ-1211 (7/Aug/42) and UJ-1204 (26/Oct/42) was previously regarded as generic Soviet-laid mines or by minor crafts. New assessment see them as victims of 1941 fields laid by Destroyer "Kalinin" and minelayer "Ural".
This is interesting because adds some results for both vessels, especially since sinking caused by Soviet destroyers' fields are rare and because "Ural" was by size and importance the second Soviet minelayer in Baltic Fleet after "Marti" (and differently from "Marti", so far therre were no victories assigned to "Ural").

2) Very recent news, the assessment for the loss of German motor torpedo boat "S-80" on 1/September/1944 during a notorious mission to disturb the Soviet exploration/possible recovery of the wreck of submarine U-250 sunk by sub.chaser earlier (Soviet sucessfully lifted the submarine).
So-far, S-80 was regarded as lost by drifting mine of difficult indentification. Few days ago M.Morosov on tsushiama identified the field as the one laid on 22 July by motor torpedo boats TKA 144 and TKA 164 (apparently mine still floated from the field but in correct position).
It's very interesting that both soviet boats were a rarity in the Baltic Fleet! TKA 144 and her sister ship (TKA 154) were part of the steel-built "Stalnoy" or S-1 class (intended to be armed with 3 torpedoes!), while TK-164 was the unique-built craft of SM-4 type (intended as larger and higher endurance compared to G-5). Both designed were not produced for their low speed, eventually TK-164 was also lost by mine near Tallinn in November.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 09 Aug 2021 21:02

igorr wrote:
25 Sep 2020 05:13
Correct n.
Greetigs igorr, hope you having good summer.
Had some time to read others of the ULTRA for Black Sea and was curious to try matching some info of encounter during Sevastopol evacuation (a couple of tricky ones i wrote about on tsushima).

1) Skirmsh on 28/29 April 1944:
From DEFE 702 page20:

Code: Select all

S-72, S-149, S-45, S-148  left Sevastopol at 1900/28/04. Patrol line. On return passage 2 MTB on reciprocal course were encountered in air grid square 3564. After a short burst of fire at 33 knots (maximum speed) the enemy was driven off in the direction of Sarich. Enemy unfortunately the faster. Made fast in Sevastopol at 0445
From DEFE 703 page1186:
“S-boats on return passage from patrol line south of Balaclava surprised 2 enemy M.T.B with fire in air grid square 3564 at 0300. Enemy was chased at maximum speed in the direction of Sarich. Enemy boats shook off pursuit by superior speed.”
(few pages earlier mention more crafts on patrol: S-131, S-72, S-148, S-28, S-149, S-47, S-45, possibly they were separated at first?).

From German side it appears no damage or casualties, you've something for the Soviet side?


2) Attack on "Freya" Convoy on 3 May 1944:
From DEFE 703, pagge479 and 828
MTB attack on naval ferry barge formation as in fig.2b at 2345 in air grid square 2566 was repulsed. No damage
MTB attack on “Freya” convoy at 0135 was repulsed, no casualties.
----
S-boats: At 0110 in action against 3 MTB attacking Freya convoy. Enemy turned away northward after observed hits. 4 enemy torpedoes avoided.
Southern group (3 S-boats) in action with enemy MTB near Cape Sarich at 2133. Enemy fired torpedo which was avoided. Action broken off at 2133 owing heavy fire from shore battery. Action at 0215 with enemy MTB course south. Hit observed. Enemy retired under the land at superior speed
The actions are linked to the old soviet claim:
2 тка, осуществляя поиск плавсредств противника у Севастополя, потопили 1 тр (ок. 5 тыс. т), 1 сухогрузную баржу и 1 ска. Пл М-62 (капитан-лейтенант Малышев Н.И.) западнее Херсонеса потопила 1 тр (ок. З тыс. т) из состава конвоя противника (1 тр, 8 бдб и 2 ска).
Howeve the convoy suffered from air attack:
air attack by 18 ground attack A/C on ((Freya convoy)) at 0650 in air grid square 3535 was repulsed. Bomb hit((s)) on Erzherog Karl and UJ-104 in tow.
Both ships with two A/S vessels and F-469 returned Sevastopol at 0900. Remainder of convoy onward passage on Costanza.
Do you have identification of the attacking Soviet TKA (as well as casualties/damages) and the type of attacking aircrafts?

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by igorr » 19 Aug 2021 06:32

lupodimare89 wrote:
09 Aug 2021 21:02
From German side it appears no damage or casualties, you've something for the Soviet side?
Looks like there was TKA Nrs. 323, 331, 345, 352, 126. They claimed to be shot up by enemy ships west from cape Feolent. Two other groups (25,105, 106 and 34,64) reported no enemy contacts.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by igorr » 19 Aug 2021 17:46

lupodimare89 wrote:
09 Aug 2021 21:02
2) Attack on "Freya" Convoy on 3 May 1944:
...
Do you have identification of the attacking Soviet TKA (as well as casualties/damages) and the type of attacking aircrafts?
TKA Nr.44 claimed one transport 5000 damaged, not sunk in 22.30msk near Chersones light. TKA Nr. 106 claimed barge and "enemy's SKA" sunk by rocket projectiles near 22.30.
No attacks on convoy at morning 3.5.44 by Il-2. Only Il-4 and Pe-2 later in day

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 02 Jan 2022 01:28

Hello igor and hope you spent a good evening, winter and good 2021!
With witner-break from job had some time to finish exploring some defe of the black sea and here few episodes that could deserve a matching with soviet account.

Excluding few minor/brief contacts the most interestings are these:

From DEFE 703,
On 5 May 1944: “Naval ferry barge convoy attacked by vessels at 0150 4,5 moles west of Khersonese.”
Also "From R-166: 2 Russian MTB attacked “Flieder” off Cape Khersonese at 0150. 2 torpedoes, no hits. Boats were forced to turn away by artillery fire. No casualties on our side."
Flieder convoy was composed by: Tissa, KT-25, UJ-106, 3 R-boats
Interestingly, i've noticed TKA 351 (of the project 123bis) and/or SM-3 involved in the action.
Outcome should still be nothing on German side, what about the Soviets?





The other interesting fight was the one occurred between 8/9 May, usually associated with old Soviet claims.
Few days later there is a DEFE report about contact with S-boats:
“Night of 8/9 : 8 S-boats south of south-west barrage gap. Artillery engagement with 4 enemy M.T.B.’s at 2044. Enemy withdrew westward at high speed. At 2057 pursuit broken off, patrol line occupied"
There are two reports (early morning report of 9 May, so about 8 night) from S-49 however that say:
"S-49 in action with 4 MTB at 2044 in square 3555. Details still outstanding."
and then "position at 1915 air grid square 0410 course 270 degrees. Arrival at about 2230. Request ‘SB’ measures for 2100. Ambulance and omnibus for wounded requested"
There is no details exactly if it means for wounded on crew or soldiers picked off the coast, could be the second one.

However apart this possible contact with S-boats, there was also the report by Jurg Meister that said:
""So, on the evening of May 9, despite bad weather, the Nadia fishing boat, the Inge motorboat, the Sturmfogel and Hella motobots, in spite of the accidents, left Sevastopol for Constanta. Because of the big wave of the Motobot, Sturmfogel was damaged and killed, and as a result of the attack on the ships of an unknown Soviet ship there were 4 wounded. One port tug that lost the course, put the sail and got safely to the Turkish coast.""

The apparent loss of this motorboat, "Sturmfogel" seems to appear a Defe report where this specific boat is missing from the ones returned to Costanza: still DEFE 703:
"Hella, Nadya, Inge, tug Wuenschenbach reached Costanza on 12 May at 134"

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 05 Jan 2022 15:26

igorr wrote:
19 Aug 2021 17:46
day
Oh! A bit surprisingly (and still about Black Sea theatre) there is a trace in the DEFE about another possible damage by asw unreported on HMA.

On 23 March 1943, U-19 attacked and missed ship PESTEL,
On DEFE 592 there are multiple references to the possible episode because it state:
“Counter-action by 3 motor-minesweepers” on 23 March, then "“Increased patrols” and finally “Return patrol begun as boat has only 1 engine working” on 27 March.
In later page it state that:
"U-19 thrust bearing severly damaged (replaced with the one from U-18, in turns on U-18 installed the one of U-23)."
An and also “starboard thrust-bearing damaged”

We can't say more, if it was for overuse, some kind effect of charges or a mix of bith.
It is known which boats attacked the submarine?
HMA doesn't mention the "motor-minesweepers" action at all.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 31 Aug 2023 10:52

Hello, will report-here the discussion on the Finnish sub-section of the forum, just in case igor or other russians have some info (will try ask also on tsushima maybe).

On 17 August 1942

Code: Select all

On Ladoga, patrol boats M0-205 and MO-213 sank a lifeboat and damaged a tugboat that threw itself onto the rocks.
На Ладоге сторожевые катера М0-205 и МО-213 потопили лайбу и повредили буксир, который выбросился на камни.
This is one of the little claims that usually got ignored for lack of Axis's confirmation and acutally now seems pretty much fully confirmed:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=184467&start=75
Lots seems match in the Finnish account, with tugboat "Kelo" that received a good degree damage (including 45mm hits) and grounded, while the "lifeboat" seems more a pilot-motorboat used to direct the wood-raft. The finnish source state that was even a "large boat" (likely in comparison with other smaller pilot-boats), and seems it was a total loss after the action: either by a mixture of damage inflicted by soviets/scuttling/grounding/one direct hit scored accidentally by the same Finnish battery. Finns state the Soviets abandoned the motorboat, likely 'cause the artillery hit damage was too much heavy
It's left unexplained, but i assume that also the wood-cargo was somewhat lost (considering it was towed by the tug and directed by the motorboat).

Any extra info from Soviets it's welcome (possible casualties-damage due Finnish coastal artillery, a better Soviet description of the capture-subsequentloss of the motorboat etc.)

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by igorr » 04 Sep 2023 04:26

MO cutters captured "laiba" after shelling it. There was no people on vessel and MO sunk them after take off some documents. No damages from finnish return fire (they think, not artillery but mine-launchers)

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