80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
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Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
It is like the old double-glazing con-save 50% of your heat -loss by fitting our windows. The mistake the buyer makes is to not realise it saves 50% of the heat lost through the window and not 50% of your total heat loss. Same with these type of statistics. The '80% lost on the Eastern front' is not really the full truth and can be countered with an equally misleading 'fact' that more German POWs were captured in the West.
Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
If you manipulate only "bare" numbers/percentages (ignoring the context and some non-Obvious, but important facts), then you can justify any absurdity.
For example, you can "prove" that strategic bombing favored an increase in the production of military equipment and ammunition in the Third Reich. The number of tons of bombs dropped on Germany in 1943 was ten times the tonnage in 1942. At the same time, the production of weapons in Germany in 1943 doubled compared to 1942. The number of tons of bombs dropped on Germany in 1944 exceeded the tonnage of 1943 by ten times. At the same time, the production of weapons in the Third Reich in 1943 doubled compared to 1943.
Conclusion: a tenfold increase in the tonnage of bombs dropped on Germany leads to a two-fold increase in weapons and ammunition. It is obvious that the reduction in metal production due to the destruction of blast furnaces was repeatedly compensated by the collection of metal fragments and shells of unexploded bombs dropped by allied aircraft. The explosive material extracted from the unexploded bomb was sent for the production of ammunition.
Thus, the allies provided invaluable assistance to the German Wehrmacht in the fight against the advancing Red Army.
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But we will not engage in such nonsense and will continue to analyze the work of Zamansky. Let's move on to the third section of this work, which is devoted "the other main component of the Luftwaffe, the extensive air defence forces" - the anti-aircraft artillery of the German Luftwaffe.
For example, you can "prove" that strategic bombing favored an increase in the production of military equipment and ammunition in the Third Reich. The number of tons of bombs dropped on Germany in 1943 was ten times the tonnage in 1942. At the same time, the production of weapons in Germany in 1943 doubled compared to 1942. The number of tons of bombs dropped on Germany in 1944 exceeded the tonnage of 1943 by ten times. At the same time, the production of weapons in the Third Reich in 1943 doubled compared to 1943.
Conclusion: a tenfold increase in the tonnage of bombs dropped on Germany leads to a two-fold increase in weapons and ammunition. It is obvious that the reduction in metal production due to the destruction of blast furnaces was repeatedly compensated by the collection of metal fragments and shells of unexploded bombs dropped by allied aircraft. The explosive material extracted from the unexploded bomb was sent for the production of ammunition.
Thus, the allies provided invaluable assistance to the German Wehrmacht in the fight against the advancing Red Army.
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But we will not engage in such nonsense and will continue to analyze the work of Zamansky. Let's move on to the third section of this work, which is devoted "the other main component of the Luftwaffe, the extensive air defence forces" - the anti-aircraft artillery of the German Luftwaffe.
Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
The numbers above pertain to Luftwaffe alone. For example, in December 1943 the German Army in the East had about 3000 light anti-aircraft guns (20-37-mm) which was a considerable addition to Luftwaffe's 4900. There were also some anti-aircraft force in the Navy.
Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
Some information about the activity of anti-aircraft artillery of the German Luftwaffe on the Ostfront.
9.Lw.Flak.Div. (motorized) for October 1942 (Stalingrad):
- positional warfare;
- ammunition consumption of 5083 tons;
- vehicle mileage - 330,000 kilometers,
- approximate number of guns 600-650.
II./Flak.Reg.241 for the period from August 3, 1943 to March 12, 1944 (7 monhts):
- type of operations - defense and retreat (from Belgorod to Uman);
- loss of 88 mm guns (from enemy fire, blown up themselves and left to the enemy) - 400%.
9.Lw.Flak.Div. (motorized) for October 1942 (Stalingrad):
- positional warfare;
- ammunition consumption of 5083 tons;
- vehicle mileage - 330,000 kilometers,
- approximate number of guns 600-650.
II./Flak.Reg.241 for the period from August 3, 1943 to March 12, 1944 (7 monhts):
- type of operations - defense and retreat (from Belgorod to Uman);
- loss of 88 mm guns (from enemy fire, blown up themselves and left to the enemy) - 400%.
Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
Losses II./Flak.Reg.241 for 3-9 august 1943 (region Tomarowka)
Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
Losses II./Flak.Reg.241 for 15-21.10.1943 (Popelnastoje)
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Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
So essentially, the Soviet Union fought the majority of the Heer /and/ Luftwaffe? If that's the case, then what was the Western contribution to the war in Europe?
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Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
If the manufacturer who provided the fire truck doesn't get it to the fire brigade they wont be able to fight the fire and the people will die because cupped hands hold but so much waterMichael Kenny wrote: ↑07 Sep 2020, 07:14If your house catches fire and your family are trapped inside....PanzerModeler wrote: ↑07 Sep 2020, 02:18wasn't the Soviet war effort SIGNIFICANTLY propped up by Lend-Lease?
if the fire brigade turn up and rescue your children.........
if 4 of the firemen die during the rescue....
Do you then praise the people who made the fire engine and tell the surviving fireman that without the contribution of the factory workers they could not have accomplished anything?
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Last edited by LineDoggie on 27 Sep 2020, 02:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach
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Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
When 70% of your rolling stock is from another Nation(s) giving it to you...(and losing people in the process of getting it to you....)Michael Kenny wrote: ↑08 Sep 2020, 06:09
It is a metaphor. There is no actual fire truck. In my opinion all the LL arguments are just a way for others to try and take some (or all) of the credit for the Soviet victory.
About as well as the Western Allies would have fared if there was no large commitment of the German Army in The East.
When Marshall Zhukov himself says the aid kept the RKKA alive and fighting....
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
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Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach
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Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
Perhaps it might have been wiser for you to find out how much 'rolling stock' the Soviets had prior to the war before posting. It could have saved you a lot of embarrassment.LineDoggie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2020, 02:41
When 70% of your rolling stock is from another Nation(s) giving it to you...
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Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
This thread contains some critiques of O'Brien's thesis (IMO decisive ones), including my own: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=250292Tramonte wrote:According Phillips Payson O'Brien air war took slice of 55-58% of German munition production
TL;DR of my view:
- O'Brien ignores the production opportunity cost of deploying workers in armies instead of in factories; most soldiers fought in the East.
- O'Brien ignores the non-weapons costs of army supply (e.g. quartermaster, engineer, signals departments); ignoring ~1/3 of the story.
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Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
Yes, value-wise munitions made at most 40% of the German industrial output (level achieved in 1944). Of the remaining 60% a large part were either raw materials needed for munitions production or general-purpose goods consumed by the military. Some illustrations from Wagenfuhr:TheMarcksPlan wrote: ↑27 Sep 2020, 07:34[*]O'Brien ignores the non-weapons costs of army supply (e.g. quartermaster, engineer, signals departments); ignoring ~1/3 of the story.
Output of the German heavy industry (machinery, metal processing, aircraft, automotive, shipbuilding, optical, electrical) in the III quarter of 1943 was equal to 12.2 billion RM. Of them 6.7 billion were munitions produced for the Wehrmacht. However, other (non-munitions) orders of the Wehrmacht added 2.8 billion for a total of 9.5.
Output of the some sectors of the light industry (textile, clothing, leather, food, wood-, glass- and paper-processing) was equal to 7.6 billion RM. Of this output 2.5 billion was consumed by the Wehrmacht.
If you add to that various materials consumed by the military then the cost of weapons, ammunition and vehicles would probably make not more than 50% of the total military consumption.
Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front
The story is more intricate. Up to the year 1944, probably, the Soviet railroads had an excess of rolling stock. Simply because the length of operational railroads shrank very much as a result of occupation. Then, of locomotives and cars received from lend-lease about 50% arrived after 1.01.45 - too late to make large contribution to the war against Germany. They were probably more instrumental in campaign against Japan, which after all involved a huge movement of troops and materials from Europe.LineDoggie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2020, 02:41When 70% of your rolling stock is from another Nation(s) giving it to you...(and losing people in the process of getting it to you....)