Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
narikis
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Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by narikis » 29 Sep 2020 17:13

Setting aside the Mauser C96 derivatives, were there any other variants of machine-pistol manufactured in any country before the end of WW2? I have heard that there was a fully-automatic version of the Steyr M1912 developed at some point during WW1 which saw limited service, but I know no details.

To avoid confusion, I'm using "machine-pistol" here to describe fully-automatic or burst-fire handguns, whether select-fire or full-auto only.

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JTV
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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by JTV » 30 Sep 2020 05:05

narikis wrote:
29 Sep 2020 17:13
Setting aside the Mauser C96 derivatives, were there any other variants of machine-pistol manufactured in any country before the end of WW2? I have heard that there was a fully-automatic version of the Steyr M1912 developed at some point during WW1 which saw limited service, but I know no details.
That kind of depends what one considers manufacturing, since there were some full-auto conversions built from existing pistols, such as Lebman's "Baby machine gun" built from Colt 1911A1 pistols in early 1930's with some of the guns being sold to rather questionable clientele.

https://www.guns.com/news/2012/09/26/le ... ine-pistol

narikis
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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by narikis » 30 Sep 2020 10:10

JTV wrote:
30 Sep 2020 05:05
That kind of depends what one considers manufacturing, since there were some full-auto conversions built from existing pistols, such as Lebman's "Baby machine gun" built from Colt 1911A1 pistols in early 1930's with some of the guns being sold to rather questionable clientele.

https://www.guns.com/news/2012/09/26/le ... ine-pistol
I'd never heard of it, thanks for bringing it to my attention. I guess, for the sake of interest, I would include modifications like that in my question.

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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by chitoryu12 » 09 Nov 2020 18:56

The Steyr pistol is the M1912.P16 if I remember the designation correctly. I don't know of any select-fire handguns in actual service other than the C96 family, as they tend to be of less use than a normal pistol or proper submachine gun.

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Hans1906
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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by Hans1906 » 09 Nov 2020 19:33

Not WW1, or WW2, but I remember a very small full-auto pistol with a probably 20/30 rounds magazine,
used by east german "Stasi" service men (MfS...) forces..?
(Very few photos av., used in the personal guard for Erich Honecker, etc.)

Probably a full-auto pistol from russian production, not a czech so called "Scorpion", any ideas..?


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JTV
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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by JTV » 09 Nov 2020 21:10

Hans1906 wrote:
09 Nov 2020 19:33

Probably a full-auto pistol from russian production, not a czech so called "Scorpion", any ideas..?
Stechkin APS?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stechkin_automatic_pistol

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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by narikis » 10 Nov 2020 00:37

Stechkin APS is after the period I'm asking about, in any case. There have been plenty of other machine-pistols made postwar (Beretta 93R, VP70, Škorpion vz. 61, etc). I am curious about the ones produced before May 1945.

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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by narikis » 10 Nov 2020 00:45

chitoryu12 wrote:
09 Nov 2020 18:56
The Steyr pistol is the M1912.P16 if I remember the designation correctly. I don't know of any select-fire handguns in actual service other than the C96 family, as they tend to be of less use than a normal pistol or proper submachine gun.
Warlords in China were apparently big fans of C96 machine-pistol derivatives. I have seen photos of a whole platoon-sized unit outfitted with them. Just because it is not the most practical thing does not mean somebody won't try it out ;)

I looked up the Steyr M1912/P16 (thanks for the name); there are a couple claims online that it was issued in limited numbers to Austrian mountain troops during WW1 (possibly as a counter to the Villar-Perosa smgs that the Italian mountain troops had). I can't find much detail to verify though.

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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by Hans1906 » 11 Nov 2020 12:23

Hi JTV,

thanks for the link, the "Stechkin automatic pistol" was probably, what I have seen on some photos and in short film clips..?

Narikis, "before 1945", the so-called "Baby machine gun" may hit your interest, please see attached photo, source: Pinterest.

If I remember this correctly, such a Colt M1911, converted to full-auto fire was used in the 2009 movie "Public Enemies", starring
Johnny Depp as John Dillinger, but I am not sure, probably another gangster movie..?
(Used by the gangster "Baby Face Nelson" in one scene)

Colt M1911 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pis ... 0to%201985

Public Enemies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_En ... 2009_film)

Interesting topic...


Hans1906

P.S. There were full-auto versions of the "Luger Pistole" also, but this another topic...
Luger Pistole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_pistol
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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by Hans1906 » 11 Nov 2020 14:34

Good afternoon,

probably many of you are aware about these two historic photos already:

What is the story behind this somewhat strange construction with the 10! Mauser M712 full-auto pistols..?

Mauser M712 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_M712

I am betting on a former austrian (Österreich) uniform, but unfortunately I am not sure? :?


Hans1906

P.S. The original source of the two photos would be very interesting?
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Helmut0815
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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by Helmut0815 » 11 Nov 2020 23:03

Hans1906 wrote:
09 Nov 2020 19:33
Not WW1, or WW2, but I remember a very small full-auto pistol with a probably 20/30 rounds magazine,
used by east german "Stasi" service men (MfS...) forces..?
Polish PM-63? Was used by Stasi agents and Regiment "Feliks Dscherzinski" troopers.
Hans1906 wrote:
11 Nov 2020 14:34
What is the story behind this somewhat strange construction with the 10! Mauser M712 full-auto pistols..?
Wow, a Zehnling! Never seen that before.


regards


Helmut

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Hans1906
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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by Hans1906 » 11 Nov 2020 23:43

"Wow, a Zehnling! Never seen that before." (There are other photos, later...)

Helmut, image the soldier pulling the trigger for the 200 rounds from the 10! M712... 8O

Quote: "900–1000 Schuss/min"

"Da bleibt kein Auge trocken", steht nur noch die Frage nach der Technik offen..? :o :o :o

Gute Nacht!
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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by Knouterer » 12 Nov 2020 12:17

Article about various Spanish selective fire pistols of the 1930s and 1940s:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/parte3cap12.pdf
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by Knouterer » 12 Nov 2020 12:28

And a French .32 Union machine pistol from the 1930s with 35-round "horseshoe" magazine. Doesn´t seem very practical. I believe Chinese arsenals also made various fully automatic pistols, apart from Mauser copies.
https://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/11/29/3 ... 32-pistol/
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Hans1906
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Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Post by Hans1906 » 13 Nov 2020 17:22

The american gangster "Baby Face Nelson" (Lester Joseph Gillis) used the full-auto converted Colt M1911

Lester Joseph Gillis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Face_Nelson

As accurately portrayed in the film "Public Enemies" from the year 2009.

"I know you bastards wear vests, so I'm gonna give it to you high and give it to you low!"
Source: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Public_Enemies

Btw. Excellent "modern" american gangster movie about John Dillinger, next to the 1973 movie "Dillinger", starring the legendary
Mr. Warren Oates as John Dillinger before.

Dillinger (1973) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dillinger_(1973_film)


Hans1906

P.S. I am certainly not a weapons fanatic, that was once, and is long ago...
But I like the historical accuracy, the very small details, and also the technical aspect.
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