Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

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George L Gregory
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#16

Post by George L Gregory » 14 Nov 2020, 23:35

history1 please show me that someone will lose his/her Austrian citizenship if he/she fights for a military service elsewhere was the law in the 1920s.

history1
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#17

Post by history1 » 14 Nov 2020, 23:45

George L Gregory wrote:
14 Nov 2020, 02:01
[...] http://countrystudies.us/austria/61.htm [...]
Holy mackerel! I had a bit of time and did look into your source!
Country Studies

This website contains the on-line versions of books previously published in hard copy by the Federal Research Division of the Library of Congress as part of the Country Studies/Area Handbook Series sponsored by the U.S. Department of the Army between 1986 and 1998. Each study offers a comprehensive description and analysis of the country or region's historical setting, geography, society, economy, political system, and foreign policy.
Seems they did quite a lousy job.
Although Austrians traditionally viewed their country as a neutral land of transit and political asylum, they did not see Austria as a land of immigration like the United States, Canada, or Australia.
Source: http://countrystudies.us/austria/64.htm
The USA a land of immigration of which 83% of the population did even refuse to save at least Jewish children in 1938. While they signed and ratified the Geneva Conventions before!
The land of immigration which did aid only a tiny part of Syrian refugees compared to Austria. What did the former POTOS state? Refugee children in detention camp in the south of US don´t need toothbruhses?! Did they not build a nice wall to keep refugees out from the southern border?
The opening of Hungary's borders during the summer of 1989 breached the Iron Curtain, and 40,000 East Germans used Austria as a land of transit to emigrate to West Germany.
Tomorrow I must ask my neighbour who is from the GDR why he´s still living here as the Americans claim they used Austria only as transit country.

Allegedly knowing about the multi-ethnic country and asking "Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?"??
I have no words for this.
Case closed. I´m out of this nonsense.


history1
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#18

Post by history1 » 14 Nov 2020, 23:51

George L Gregory wrote:
14 Nov 2020, 23:35
history1 please show me that someone will lose his/her Austrian citizenship if he/she fights for a military service elsewhere was the law in the 1920s.
Do your own work. As a starter:
http://alex.onb.ac.at/

George L Gregory
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#19

Post by George L Gregory » 15 Nov 2020, 00:53

history1 wrote:
14 Nov 2020, 23:51
George L Gregory wrote:
14 Nov 2020, 23:35
history1 please show me that someone will lose his/her Austrian citizenship if he/she fights for a military service elsewhere was the law in the 1920s.
Do your own work. As a starter:
http://alex.onb.ac.at/
No. Your claim, you prove it.

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Sheldrake
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#20

Post by Sheldrake » 15 Nov 2020, 02:12

George L Gregory wrote:
14 Nov 2020, 22:38

(1) No, it is not. The English people and the Scottish people have different ethnic origins and different histories.
The opposite seems to true. According to this genetic map of Europe, the English and Scots are genetically much more similar than the Germans and Austrians. The Austrians seem to have more in common with the Hungarians than the Germans.
https://brilliantmaps.com/the-genetic-map-of-europe/

There is some confusion between political boundaries and ethnicity. Scotland, England, Germany and Austria are labels given to modern regions whose boundaries, have evolved over time to contain a mix of people which we sometimes attribute common culture and ethnicity. Sure there have been big population movements, but often the locals just adopt the customs and language of the occupier. "Austria" may well be the descendants of a handful of German knights and a native population indistinguishable from other Danube valley dwellers.
(2)How is Austrian history different to German history? Austria was formed out of Bavaria in 976 and then later became its own duchy in 1156. The name Austria "Österreich" means the "eastern realm". Up until 1866 Austria was a part of German and had ruled Germany (the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation - the first Reich) for hundreds of years. Austria was the powerful southern German state and Prussia was the powerful northern German state. The two states fought against each other in 1866 and unfortunately for the Austrians they lost the war and were excluded from Germany and did not become part of the German Reich. Even when Austria joined Austria-Hungary, many Austrians still remained loyal to the Reich and despised the multinational Ausrtian-Hungarian Empire. What do you think "German-Austria" was all about after WW1? What do you think the Anschluss was about in 1938? Austrian history really only differed from German history after WW2. One could ironically it was because of a native Austrian.
The idea of the nation state is relatively recent invention. "Austria" did not exist until 1805. For a thousand years the Holy Roman Empire was made up of principalities and electorates in what we might now regard as Germany. Land was owned by dynasties. Austria and Bohemia were both in the empire, though the Austrian monarchy held lands in Italy and expanded into Hungary and the Balkans. The concept of a German Nation dates from the early 19th century and was linguistically based, Wherever German is spoken should be Germany....
Which was bound to cause trouble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9OUJcbgnXg

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#21

Post by George L Gregory » 15 Nov 2020, 02:26

Sheldrake wrote:
15 Nov 2020, 02:12
George L Gregory wrote:
14 Nov 2020, 22:38

(1) No, it is not. The English people and the Scottish people have different ethnic origins and different histories.
The opposite seems to true. According to this genetic map of Europe, the English and Scots are genetically much more similar than the Germans and Austrians. The Austrians seem to have more in common with the Hungarians than the Germans.
https://brilliantmaps.com/the-genetic-map-of-europe/

There is some confusion between political boundaries and ethnicity. Scotland, England, Germany and Austria are labels given to modern regions whose boundaries, have evolved over time to contain a mix of people which we sometimes attribute common culture and ethnicity. Sure there have been big population movements, but often the locals just adopt the customs and language of the occupier. "Austria" may well be the descendants of a handful of German knights and a native population indistinguishable from other Danube valley dwellers.
(2)How is Austrian history different to German history? Austria was formed out of Bavaria in 976 and then later became its own duchy in 1156. The name Austria "Österreich" means the "eastern realm". Up until 1866 Austria was a part of German and had ruled Germany (the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation - the first Reich) for hundreds of years. Austria was the powerful southern German state and Prussia was the powerful northern German state. The two states fought against each other in 1866 and unfortunately for the Austrians they lost the war and were excluded from Germany and did not become part of the German Reich. Even when Austria joined Austria-Hungary, many Austrians still remained loyal to the Reich and despised the multinational Ausrtian-Hungarian Empire. What do you think "German-Austria" was all about after WW1? What do you think the Anschluss was about in 1938? Austrian history really only differed from German history after WW2. One could ironically it was because of a native Austrian.
The idea of the nation state is relatively recent invention. "Austria" did not exist until 1805. For a thousand years the Holy Roman Empire was made up of principalities and electorates in what we might now regard as Germany. Land was owned by dynasties. Austria and Bohemia were both in the empire, though the Austrian monarchy held lands in Italy and expanded into Hungary and the Balkans. The concept of a German Nation dates from the early 19th century and was linguistically based, Wherever German is spoken should be Germany....
Which was bound to cause trouble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9OUJcbgnXg
You're moving the goalposts now by discussing genetics. DNA doesn't tell you your race (which is a social construct anyway, never mind your ethnic group. (which is also a social construct). The genetic map doesn't prove that Austrians aren't ethnic Germans. There's no reason to mention DNA/genetics. I have specifically mentioned that I am referring to historically Austrians considered themselves to be ethnic Germans and that after WW2 a separate Austrian national identity emerged.

You do realise that even the Nazis admitted that ethnic Germans were a mixed people, right?

English people have never considered themselves to be Scottish people. Scottish people have never considered themselves to be English people.

Austrians have considered themselves in the past to be Germans. They were considered and thought of themselves to be Germans.

Austria gained the status of a duchy in 1156 and from then on the Austrians dominated Germany for hundreds of years.

Where do you get the idea that Austria became a country in 1805??? Austria joined the German Confederation in 1815 after it replaced the first Reich which ended in 1806 and was a German state like Bavaria, Prussia, etc. Austria became a nation-state in 1919 as the First Austrian Republic.

It is a fact that the only reason Austria never unified Germany was because the Prussians defeated the Austrians in the German war. If history had turned out differently then the Austrians would have unified Germany as Greater Germany.

You never explained how Austrian history and German history were different before 1945.

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Sheldrake
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#22

Post by Sheldrake » 15 Nov 2020, 12:30

George L Gregory wrote:
15 Nov 2020, 02:26
You're moving the goalposts now by discussing genetics. DNA doesn't tell you your race (which is a social construct anyway, never mind your ethnic group. (which is also a social construct). The genetic map doesn't prove that Austrians aren't ethnic Germans. There's no reason to mention DNA/genetics. I have specifically mentioned that I am referring to historically Austrians considered themselves to be ethnic Germans and that after WW2 a separate Austrian national identity emerged.
While it is possible to see race and ethnicity as social constructs, in common use race is seen as biologically determined- hence the fuss about white people self identifying as black. The Nazis certainly viewed race as a biologically based. No matter how well assimilated Jews were in German society and how much they saw themselves as German, it would not save them from the holocaust. DNA matters.

English people have never considered themselves to be Scottish people. Scottish people have never considered themselves to be English people.


That is why the cunning politician King James 1st of England VIth of Scotland invented the term Great Britain.

It is a fallacy is to consider populations as if they were individuals. Which people? To Gaelic speaking highlanders the English and lowland Scots are all Sassanachs = Saxons = Germans. Do the inhabitants of Cornwall or Yorkshire see themselves as members of their country first or as English. Do the large number of non English born Londoners see themselves as English, British or Londoners?
Austrians have considered themselves in the past to be Germans. They were considered and thought of themselves to be Germans.[/quote These are C21st day terms for something which did not exist before 1870. Germany was a geographic expression not a country and largely meant "German speaking". The words of the inflammatory nationalistic song what is a German land names Switzerland as a German land, and s=distinguishes between Austria, the Tyrol and Styria. Arndt's song was banned almost everywhere after the Napoleonic wars
Austria gained the status of a duchy in 1156 and from then on the Austrians dominated Germany for hundreds of years.
Austria did not dominate Germany. That is an oversimplification. The Hapsburg family had the throne of the (mainly German) Holy Roman Emperor, for much of the time. Imperial power, though backed (usually) by the Pope was limited. The Hapsburg's Otto of Brunswick - (English) King John's nephew was the Emperor for a while. The Holy Roman Empire was not exclusively German speaking. It also included Italy and Bohemia, and a large swathe of modern France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

Image

They were the Ost Mark =- the eastern marches of the Empire and the bulwark against the Turk. Until 1919 the state was not Austria but the Imperial and Royal lands of the Hapsburgs. The Hapsburgs were as much Kings of Hungary as sometime Emperors of the German First Reich. Their interests were in Italy and in the Balkan lands reconquered from the Turks. Austrian history is very different to German history.

Where do you get the idea that Austria became a country in 1805???
Because that is when Napoleon destroyed the KuK military power after Ulm and Austerlitz and occupied Vienna, ending the Holy Roman Empire. The paperwork in 1806 was just tidying up.
It is a fact that the only reason Austria never unified Germany was because the Prussians defeated the Austrians in the German war. If history had turned out differently then the Austrians would have unified Germany as Greater Germany.
Starting a sentence with the words 'It is a fact' makes me suspicious. Its like the words 'obviously' or 'Clearly' and usually used to hide some shaky assumptions.

What evidence is there that the KuK government had any intention of unifying a Greater Germany? The last attempt to impose power in the name of the counter reformation was called the 30 years war, and a bloody draw.

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#23

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Nov 2020, 12:35

Hi Guys,

For anyone interested there is a thread discussing varying Austrian attitudes to Anchluss between the wars on:

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=231738&hilit=Austrian+plebiscite

Cheers,

Sid

George L Gregory
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#24

Post by George L Gregory » 16 Nov 2020, 17:23

Sheldrake wrote:
15 Nov 2020, 12:30
It is a fallacy is to consider populations as if they were individuals.
Although I haven't done that, enlighten me and tell what that fallacy is called. :lol:

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#25

Post by history1 » 17 Nov 2020, 20:09

Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Nov 2020, 12:35
Hi Guys,

For anyone interested there is a thread discussing varying Austrian attitudes to Anchluss between the wars on:

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=231738&hilit=Austrian+plebiscite

Cheers,

Sid
In which way is the Anschluß of interest/related to the question "Are Austrians ethnic Germans?"?
Non, I guess.

George L Gregory
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#26

Post by George L Gregory » 17 Nov 2020, 22:13

history1 wrote:
17 Nov 2020, 20:09
Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Nov 2020, 12:35
Hi Guys,

For anyone interested there is a thread discussing varying Austrian attitudes to Anchluss between the wars on:

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=231738&hilit=Austrian+plebiscite

Cheers,

Sid
In which way is the Anschluß of interest/related to the question "Are Austrians ethnic Germans?"?
Non, I guess.
Doesn’t the Greater Germany concept ring any bells? 8O

After Germany was unified and Austria was excluded, many Germans in Austria and Germany wanted Austria to be united with Germany. The whole idea of annexing Austria to the Reich was the idea of a Greater Germany, that is, uniting all Germans under one State.

Hence the Nazis using the term “Heim ins Reich”.

I’m sure you just enjoy trolling because you were unable to prove your previous claim and then posted that you were done posting on this thread and now are you back.
Last edited by George L Gregory on 18 Nov 2020, 14:11, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#27

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Nov 2020, 13:18

Hi History1,

As Greg says, the whole Anschluss project was predicated on the Austrians being ethnic Germans.

I am more than a little surprised that you didn't know that, given you style yourself "History1"!.

Cheers,

Sid

history1
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#28

Post by history1 » 18 Nov 2020, 14:24

George L Gregory wrote:
15 Nov 2020, 02:26
You're moving the goalposts now by discussing genetics. DNA doesn't tell you your race (which is a social construct anyway, never mind your ethnic group. (which is also a social construct). [...]

It is a fact that the only reason Austria never unified Germany was because the Prussians defeated the Austrians in the German war. If history had turned out differently then the Austrians would have unified Germany as Greater Germany.[...]
Your guesswork is everything but facts. Proof it!
George L Gregory wrote:
15 Nov 2020, 02:26
Doesn’t the Greater Germany concept ring any bells? 8O
Greater Germany? LOL
Who cares for GG when the question is "Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?"?
Just the other day I met a friend from from the Burgenland Croatian minority. I don´t repeat here what he did say when he heard about your idiotic claim that Austrians consider themself being Germans.

history1
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#29

Post by history1 » 18 Nov 2020, 14:27

Sid Guttridge wrote:
18 Nov 2020, 13:18
Hi History1,

As Greg says, the whole Anschluss project was predicated on the Austrians being ethnic Germans.

I am more than a little surprised that you didn't know that, given you style yourself "History1"!.

Cheers,

Sid
Hi Sid,

You can bet that I´m more than a little surprised too when you refer to a "Greg" in this thread. Do you mean this "George L Gregory"?

Cheers

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#30

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Nov 2020, 15:38

Hi History1,

Indeed I do. Thanks for the correction. Here It is again with your modification:

"Hi History1,

As George L. Gregory says, the whole Anschluss project was predicated on the Austrians being ethnic Germans.

I am more than a little surprised that you didn't know that, given you style yourself "History1"!.

Cheers,

Sid"

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