What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

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What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 01 Dec 2020 23:09

What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews (including the Jews in the territories that the Soviet Union conquered in 1939-1940) to the Jewish Autonomous Oblast (JAO) en masse sometime between 1934 and 1941 have on Anglo-American support for the Soviet Union during World War II? Stalin's logic for such a move would be to create a genuine Jewish homeland in the JAO by deporting all Soviet Jews there, and such a move--while being extremely deadly in the short-run--might actually be more beneficial for Soviet Jews on average in the long(er)-run due to a huge number of them being able to escape the clutches of the Nazis and thus escape being murdered in the Holocaust. However, I was wondering what effect such a move on Stalin's part would have had on Anglo-American support for the Soviet Union after Operation Barbarossa? Would this have caused the Anglo-Americans to give significantly less support to the Soviet Union after June 1941 than they gave the Soviet Union in real life, or what? After all, I certainly can't imagine the British and US publics being very pleased about a forcible massive Soviet deportation of millions of Soviet Jews to the remote Far East--even if this move would have ironically ultimately saved a lot of their lives! On the other hand, though, I don't think that the British and US publics were that concerned with the welfare and well-being of the Jews before 1945, were they? Defeating Nazi Germany was by far the most urgent and important priority for them, no?

Anyway, what do you personally think about all of this?

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by wm » 02 Dec 2020 00:15

Stalin wouldn't do it. That was against the very core of Soviet ideology. Nationalism was evil and was never encouraged. Eventually all nations were going to disappear - to be replaced by Soviet people.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 02 Dec 2020 00:17

wm wrote:
02 Dec 2020 00:15
Stalin wouldn't do it. That was against the very core of Soviet ideology. Nationalism was evil and was never encouraged. Eventually all nations were going to disappear - to be replaced by Soviet people.
He deported Soviet Koreans from the Russian Far East to Central Asia in 1937-1938.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by wm » 02 Dec 2020 00:32

That was for security reasons, so he dispersed them and destroyed their national identity.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 02 Dec 2020 02:17

And what would it take for Stalin to view Soviet Jews as a comparable security threat/risk?

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 02 Dec 2020 05:15

For that read up on the new round of purges he was starting 1952-53. Sorry I don't have the title of anything to recommend. If what I have read is accurate Party leaders with Jewish ancestors were among the first wave of arrests in this new purge. Perhaps something useful to you might be there?

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 02 Dec 2020 05:34

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
02 Dec 2020 05:15
For that read up on the new round of purges he was starting 1952-53. Sorry I don't have the title of anything to recommend. If what I have read is accurate Party leaders with Jewish ancestors were among the first wave of arrests in this new purge. Perhaps something useful to you might be there?
AFAIK, those purges might have been done in part because there was a fear of Soviet Jews being a Zionist and pro-American fifth column. There is speculation that these purges would have been followed by mass deportations of Soviet Jews to the JAO or Siberia or wherever, but AFAIK the question has not been conclusively settled.

To my knowledge, though, Soviet Jews were not viewed as potential subversives in 1934-1941 like they were after 1948. So, I really don't know what would actually be necessary to change this.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 02 Dec 2020 06:00

You might also read up on the intent behind the idea to establish a Jewish province in Siberia. Maybe that can be followed somewhere.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by wm » 02 Dec 2020 09:32

Futurist wrote:
02 Dec 2020 02:17
And what would it take for Stalin to view Soviet Jews as a comparable security threat/risk?
The Koreans were a potential security threat (not much different from the Japanese Americans in 1942.)

The Soviet Jews became a similar potential threat after Israel had been established and allied itself with the Western world.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 02 Dec 2020 15:24

Futurist wrote:
01 Dec 2020 23:09
What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews (including the Jews in the territories that the Soviet Union conquered in 1939-1940) to the Jewish Autonomous Oblast (JAO) en masse sometime between 1934 and 1941 have on Anglo-American support for the Soviet Union during World War II?
Maybe you can to start new topic on question:

What effect would having potus deport the Amerika's Jews to a Jewish Autonomous Reservation (JAR) en masse sometime between 1934 and 1941 have on Anglo-French-Soviet support for Amerika during World War II?
Futurist wrote:
02 Dec 2020 00:17
He deported Soviet Koreans from the Russian Far East to Central Asia in 1937-1938.
And many potus was deport much native Amerikans on reservations to.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Terry Duncan » 02 Dec 2020 17:55

Please be very careful with what is said in this thread as it is a subject that can see many people get heated and say unwise things. I will allow it to run for now but we cannot allow any straying into areas of anti-Semitism for obvious reasons.

Terry

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 02 Dec 2020 19:36

Terry Duncan wrote:
02 Dec 2020 17:55
Please be very careful with what is said in this thread as it is a subject that can see many people get heated and say unwise things. I will allow it to run for now but we cannot allow any straying into areas of anti-Semitism for obvious reasons.

Terry
Understood. For what it's worth, I was simply trying to figure out a realistic way to save much more Soviet Jews during the Holocaust (in a TL where France still falls in 1940).

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 02 Dec 2020 19:36

wm wrote:
02 Dec 2020 09:32
Futurist wrote:
02 Dec 2020 02:17
And what would it take for Stalin to view Soviet Jews as a comparable security threat/risk?
The Koreans were a potential security threat (not much different from the Japanese Americans in 1942.)

The Soviet Jews became a similar potential threat after Israel had been established and allied itself with the Western world.
Which additional groups did Stalin view as a potential security threat before 1939?

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by wm » 02 Dec 2020 20:28

You'll find them here.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 02 Dec 2020 23:25

Interesting; thank you. I wonder if Stalin would have viewed Soviet Jews as being more of a security threat if Nazi Germany would have, purely hypothetically, been Judeophilic instead of severely Judeophobic.

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