German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
-
- Member
- Posts: 1235
- Joined: 11 May 2016, 02:09
- Location: Earth
German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
Hi,
all is in the title : what were the German losses from April 44 till may 45 on the Eastern Front ?
By eastern front, I mean the German losses inflicted by the Red Army in USSR but also in Eastern Europe (44) and in Germany (45).
1 million dead ?
all is in the title : what were the German losses from April 44 till may 45 on the Eastern Front ?
By eastern front, I mean the German losses inflicted by the Red Army in USSR but also in Eastern Europe (44) and in Germany (45).
1 million dead ?
-
- Member
- Posts: 8269
- Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
- Location: Teesside
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
The short answer is the actual number is unknown.
-
- Member
- Posts: 1235
- Joined: 11 May 2016, 02:09
- Location: Earth
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
Not even a little estimate ?
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
There are known estimates by Overmans:
For the year 1945 Overmans gives the aggregate numbers without breakdown by fronts. It should be borne in mind that these numbers are probably maximal estimates.
For the year 1945 Overmans gives the aggregate numbers without breakdown by fronts. It should be borne in mind that these numbers are probably maximal estimates.
-
- Member
- Posts: 6410
- Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
- Location: Bremerton, Washington
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
I'm still wondering how he estimated a third of a million casualties after 8 May 1945...
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
POWs death, I guess.
-
- Member
- Posts: 6410
- Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
- Location: Bremerton, Washington
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
Because German POW were systematically starved and murdered after the war by the Allies? Yeah, but no.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
-
- Member
- Posts: 8711
- Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
- Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
Overmanns and his 'interpolations'....old story. Simply sucks...
Jan-Hendrik
Jan-Hendrik
-
- Member
- Posts: 1235
- Joined: 11 May 2016, 02:09
- Location: Earth
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
Thank you Art. So it is like 1 million German losses for the eastern front for 1944 and 1945.
What about German losses from January till march ? I don't remember great battles during that time.
Do you have better sources, please ?Jan-Hendrik wrote: ↑26 Dec 2020, 16:50Overmanns and his 'interpolations'....old story. Simply sucks...
Jan-Hendrik
Thank you in advance.
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
Original (and sometimes seriously downstated) reports are available down the link:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161109232 ... okw44.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20161109232 ... okw44.html
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
Soviet records do show that something like 450k German PoWs died in Soviet custody and likely many more died before they could be added to PoW rolls given the large number of permanent missing. So no, not Basque's 'other losses' or systematic starvation (other than arguably what happened to the Stalingrad PoWs) like what the Germans did to the Soviet PoWs in 1941-42, but still a substantial mortality rate.Richard Anderson wrote: ↑26 Dec 2020, 16:26Because German POW were systematically starved and murdered after the war by the Allies? Yeah, but no.
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
Official numbers are 380,000 death of POWs from the German Wehrmacht, not all of whom were actually Germans by ethnicity. The bulk of these deaths happened before May 1945. There were probably slightly more than 100,000 deaths beginning from June 1945 and until the end of repatriation.
I would attribute them to the gap in reporting.given the large number of permanent missing
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
In the case of Hungary, the POWs and other rounded-up males were very badly treated in slave labor camps in the SU. Even if it was not a systematic plan, thousands perished of infections, malnutrition and cold.Richard Anderson wrote: ↑26 Dec 2020, 16:26Because German POW were systematically starved and murdered after the war by the Allies? Yeah, but no.
To be fair, I personally met and talked to some people who were taken away to do forced labor in Kiev, and the guy was so talented (he was a plumber) that the Soviets wanted to keep him there, offered him a flat, a decent salary and multiple wives.
About 30% of the Hungarian POWs and malenkij robot prisoners died.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."
-
- Member
- Posts: 6410
- Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
- Location: Bremerton, Washington
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
I understand, but when we have reasonably well documented estimates of c. 178,000 postwar PW deaths becoming 750,000, then I have a problem. The only way that Overmann can make it work is by forcing a further 575,000 deaths into the wartime years, after already shoehorning in hundreds of thousands into those years with little explanation of how they occurred other than "German reporting was bad", which simply wasn't the case.Peter89 wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 11:22In the case of Hungary, the POWs and other rounded-up males were very badly treated in slave labor camps in the SU. Even if it was not a systematic plan, thousands perished of infections, malnutrition and cold.Richard Anderson wrote: ↑26 Dec 2020, 16:26Because German POW were systematically starved and murdered after the war by the Allies? Yeah, but no.
To be fair, I personally met and talked to some people who were taken away to do forced labor in Kiev, and the guy was so talented (he was a plumber) that the Soviets wanted to keep him there, offered him a flat, a decent salary and multiple wives.
About 30% of the Hungarian POWs and malenkij robot prisoners died.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)
The number of Hungarian POWs death in 1944-1949 was about 50,000 of nearly half a million registered prisoners.