Russian Military losses

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 03 Jan 2021 01:50

Official losses 1961-89
  • Millions
    KIA 5,187.1
    Died wounds 1,100.3
    Died sickness 267.3
    Convicts 557.7
    POW 4,908.0
    MIA 500.0
    Released POW (2,016.0)
    Security/Border 144.0
    Civilians in military 94.6
    Civilians killed 4,500.0
    Leningrad siege 657.0
    Excess civilian deaths 4,100.0
    Total Losses 20,000.0
Last edited by thorwald77 on 03 Jan 2021 04:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 03 Jan 2021 02:04

Official losses 1993 - present
  • KIA 5,187,190
    Died wounds 1,100,327
    Died sickness 267,394
    Convicts 562,900
    POW 4,908,000
    MIA 500,000
    Released POW (2,016,480)
    Security/Border 144,000
    Civilians in military 94,660
    Subtotal Military 10,747,991
  • Deserters 171,000
    2nd Emmigration 451,500
    Reconscripted 939,700
    Reserves not inducted 500,000
    Civilians killed 4,500,000
    Lenningrad siege 800,000
    Bombing Lennigrad Stalingrad 58,000
    Subtotal Civilian 7,420,200
  • Excess Deaths per Philimoshen 1995 8,500,000
  • Total War Losses 26,668,191
Note well that 171K deserters and the 451K 2nd emigration equals 622K
Zemeskov refers to the deserters as "Germans and Romanians"
Last edited by thorwald77 on 03 Jan 2021 02:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 03 Jan 2021 02:11

ADK population Balance
  • Millions
    Population 6/41 196.716
    Births 12.400
    Natural deaths (11.900)
    War losses (26.668)
    Population12/45 170.548

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 03 Jan 2021 02:14

Losses Mihalev corrections 2001
  • KIA 5,187,190
    Died wounds 1,100,327
    Died sickness 267,394
    Convicts 562,900
    POW 4,908,000
    MIA 500,000
    Released POW (2,016,480)
    Security/Border 146,500
    Civilians in military 94,660
    Deserters 171,000
    Total Military losses 10,921,491

Recociliation Mihalev 2001
  • Army & Navy - June 1941 4,704,000
    Drafted during war 29,575,000
    Discharged during war (9,693,000)
    Army & Navy – June 1945 (11,999,000)
    Subtotal: operational losses 12,587,000
    Liberated POW returned to USSR (1,836,000)
    Losses of NKVD & border troops 159,100
    Losses in the Far East August 1945 12,000
    Total irrecoverable losses 10,922,100
Last edited by thorwald77 on 03 Jan 2021 04:13, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 03 Jan 2021 02:22

Forced Labor in Germany
  • Millions
    KIA 5,187.1
    Died wounds 1,100.3
    Died sickness 267.0
    Convicts 557.0
    POW 4,908.0
    MIA 500.0
    Released POW (2,016.5)
    Security/Border 55.8
    Civilians in military 94.0
    Deserters 180.0
    Subtotal 10,832.7

    Less Krivosheev Balance (8,668.4)
    Balance forced labor 2,164.3
  • Convicts 557.7
    Pows 1,606.6
    Balance forced labor 2,164.3

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 05 Jan 2021 11:27

The balance of the Red Army's officer casualties.

1. Officers in the Red Army as of 22.6.41 (excluding air forces and political officers):
435 915

2. Promoted to officer positions during the war:
Total 2 224 884 men, including:
- reserve officers - 674 200
- graduated from military schools - 702 600
- graduated from courses - 414 800
- promoted from enlisted ranks - 257 400
- from political officers - 137 800
- from Navy, NKVD, air force - 21 500

3. In the Red Army at the end of the war:
1 382 115

All numbers are from the doctorate thesis by A. Bezugolniy (2019)

From here we arrive to the balance 1+2-3 or 1 278 684 men.

That includes retirements due to wounds and diseases (estimated about 200 000), officers sentenced by tribunals (20 071 according to "Military cadres of the Soviet state"), transfers to allied armies (19 679 according to "Military cadres"), transfers to Navy, NKVD and civil organizations, non-battle deaths etc. Still, the battle casualties apparently exceeded 1 million men. According to "Military cadres" battle casualties of the Red Army officers (without air force and political officers) were not less than 870 000 men. That doesn't include repatriated POWs (almost 150 000). So again, more than 1 million battle casualties, to which losses of air force, navy, political officers should be added. At the same time, according to official publications ("Soviet casualties and combat losses...") irrevocable losses (battle and non-battle) of Army's and Navy's officers were about 900 000 men. Obviously, the last number is considerably downstated.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 05 Jan 2021 15:43

Art wrote Obviously, the last number is considerably downstated.
Reconciliation Soviet Officer Losses
1941-45
  • Total per A. Bezugolniy (2019) 1,278,684
    retirements due to wounds and diseases (200,000)
    sentenced by tribunals (20,071)
    transfers to allied armies (19,679)
    Total 1,038,934

    Balance per Krivosheev 2010 p.475 (1,023,088)

    Unlocated difference 15,846

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 06 Jan 2021 11:06

It's not so simple. According to "Military cadres of the Soviet state" from June 1941 to September 1945 the Soviet army and navy lost 1,023,093 officers, including 631,008 killed in action, dead of wounds, diseases and accidents and 392,085 missing in action. Which is based on examination and calculation of individual records. Of them 122,095 were enlisted men on officer positions, which leaves about 900,000 (900,998) losses of men with officer ranks. Ostensibly that matches the number of officers losses given by Krivosheyev but in reality it doesn't. As clearly stated in the "Military cadres" their causality numbers don't include repatriated POWs or other recovered missing. As least 126,000 Soviet officers that were taken prisoners were repatriated at the end of the war and after the war by official count. Also about 50,000 were recovered on the occupied territories and passed through filtration camps until the end of 1944. That means that complete number of officer losses (dead and missing) was somewhere between 1,050,000 and 1,100,000. So about 20% larger than given by Krivosheyev.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 07 Jan 2021 22:55

Art wrote
That means that the complete number of officer losses (dead and missing) was somewhere between 1,050,000 and 1,100,000
.

The balance of 1.1 million officer irreplaceable losses is in agreement with Illenkov 2001.

Using the same methodology as A. Bezugolniy (2019) I estimate total losses at 10.832 million

Total per Archives 13,850,000
Deserters 180,000
Excluded for various reasons (note A) (956,800)
Never called up (500,000)
Returned POWs in filtration (1,836,000)
Civilians in military service 94,660
Total irreplaceable losses 10,831,860

(note A) Krivosheev 2010 p. 231

Balance per Krivosheev 8,668,000
Forced labor in Germany 2,164,000
Total net losses 10,832,000

Illenkov2001
Army Enlisted 12,434,398
Officers 1,100,000
Navy 154,771
Border-Security 159,100 1
Total reported dead missing 13,848,269

Does not include deserters & civilians
Total rounded to 13,850,000

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 09 Jan 2021 12:30

thorwald77 wrote:
07 Jan 2021 22:55
The balance of 1.1 million officer irreplaceable losses is in agreement with Illenkov 2001.
Not exactly. You should always remember what kind of losses you consider. Ilyenkov talked about demographic losses. He made clear that he excluded officers that were repatriated prisoners of war, officers who were found alive or recovered in some other way from his count. From the data given by Ilyenkov the estimated number of them is about 180-190 thousand. So Ilyenkov estimated some 1,1 million demographic losses of Red Army's officer. Adding 180-190 thousand recovered casualties we arrive to nearly 1,3 million total irrevocable military losses. Casualties of the Soviet Navy should also be added. It was not explicitly stated if Ilyenkov considered losses of enlisted men on officer positions, but it seems that he didn't. Of course, all that is true only if Ilyenkov's estimates were correct.
All that can be compared with records of losses (dead and missing) registered by Soviet Army/Soviet Armed Forces. Already during the war Glavupraform and later Main Administration for Cadres regularly issued lists of officer casualties. That work was continued after the war, some corrections and amendments were made well into 1960s. Presently these lists are available at obd-memorial.ru.
A search by the database gives the records of about 1,290,000 men with officer ranks. There were also some tens thousand records of casualties of enlisted men on officer positions and also some smaller number of cases where the rank was not identifiable. It occurs to me that closeness of that number 1,290 thousand records of officer casualties to nearly identical number of losses estimated from Ilyenkov is not coincidental. That crude number was quite an overstatement as there were many duplicating records (the same men included in several lists) or cases when the men reported as casualties were found alive or corrections of the previous lists etc etc. My crude estimate based on sample study is about 25% of these "excess" records. That gives 1,290*0.75 = about 950 thousand demographic losses of officers. That includes some crosstalk with losses of the Navy and officers assigned to allied armies. In any case the number is closer to "Military Cadres" than to Ilyenkov. I do believe that Ilyenkov didn't fully cleanse duplicating and other excessive records, hence his larger figures.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 09 Jan 2021 12:37

I'me focusing so much on officer losses, since as explained above the Soviet military tried to sort them out after the war and arrive to some final list of casualties based on various personal records. This work was summarized in "Military cadres of the Soviet state" published in 1963. As far as casualties of enlisted men are concerned they didn't even try and available casualty records were too chaotic and contained too much omissions and duplicates to arrive to some solid number.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 09 Jan 2021 14:41

Art wrote
As far as casualties of enlisted men are concerned they didn't even try and available casualty records were too chaotic and contained too much omissions and duplicates to arrive to some solid number.
I believe The Krivosheev-Philomoshen combined total of 10.382 million is more than likely the official solid number for military losses. I say this because it ties into the balance of 956.8 million listed in Krivosheev and Illenkov's 13.850 million. The unexplained difference in military losses of 956.8 million was plugged into civilian casualties

All figures in millions

Krivosveev 8,668
Philomoshen 2,164
Combined total 10,832

Illenkov2001 13,850.0
Deserters 180.0
Civilians in military service 94.6
Subtotal 14,124.6

Filtration (1,836.0)
Corrections (956.0)
Reservists not conscripted (500.0)
Combined total 10,832.6

It seems that the balance of 956K that we see on Krivosheev 2010 p.231 was plugged into civilian casualties.

Civilians killed per Zemeskov 4,500
Siege Leningrad 800
Bombing Stalingrad 40
Bombing Moscow 2
2nd emigration 622
Unlocated difference military 956
Reservists not conscripted 500
Exterminated civilians 7,420

здесь мы видим гла́сность

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 15 Jul 2021 22:12

Art wrote:
13 Jul 2009 17:16
I've just found how combat losses of the Red Army were estimated right after the war. I think that information can be interesting. That is from the memorandum on losses of Red Army personnel in the Great Patriotic War written in June 1945:
1. Killed and died of wound
Killed in action - 5 141 000
Died of wounds in hospitals - 1 190 000
Total - 6 331 000

2. Lost as wounded in action
Overall number of wounded (excluding those who died of wounds) according to units' reports - 13 960 000
of them disabled - 2 576 000

3. Lost as prisoners and missing in action
Prisoners of war registered by repatriational organs - 2 015 000
Missing in action - 1 196 000
Unregistered losses of the initial period of war - 133 000

Total prisoners and missing - 3 344 000
Total losses - 23 635 000
The document is signed by the chief of department of registration and control of the Armed Forces' strength colonel Pokrovsky. Reproduced in S.N. Mikhalev "Ludskiye poteri v Velikoy Otechestvennoy Voine. 1942-45" (Human losses in the GPW.1941-45), Krasnoyarsk, 2000.
Note that allready by that time the General Staff had the statistics on killed and wounded, which remained virtually unchanged over 60 years. At the same time estimating the number of missing still remains problematic.
BTW Ivlev recently published a scan of the summary report of the Soviet General Staff on casualties suffered during the war (22.6.41-10.5.41):
https://www.soldat.ru/data/images/zamo_ ... _29_74.jpg
Which, I suppose was just a summation of ten-days or monthly reports accumulated in 4 years. The documents gives 5,133,266 killed in action, 3,174,883 missing in action, 36,649 POWs, 528,119 non-combat casualties, 15,140,613 wounded in action, 3,008,760 evacuated sick, 90,875 evacuated frostbites, total 27,112,165 recorded casualties.
As Ivlev correctly pointed out these numbers didn't include casualties of the Navy and NKVD troops and also were by no means complete.
Anyway, it's clear that this summary was in many ways similar to official publications made 50 years later (e.g. "Soviet casualties and combat losses.." by G. Krovosheyev).

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 16 Jul 2021 03:35

Art the preliminary data you have posted is as you wrote
in many ways similar to official publications made 50 years later.
The data in the Krovosheyev study was the work of the General Staff in the post war era, they have not provided detailed calculations and the documents that support the data. I have worked on this problem and the calculations are my own work.

A. Krivosheyev's figure of 8.668 million war dead is supported by the the data listing the Army Groups and Fleets. He deducted 557,700 convicts and 94,600 civilians. They are included in the statistic of 7.420 million civilian deaths.

B. Total military losses were 11.485 million. Including Krivosheyev's figure of 8.668 million war dead, 2.164 million forced labor in Germany, 557,700 convicts and 94,600 civilians.

C. The Russian military archive figure of c.13.850 million includes 11.485 dead and missing as well as 354,000 released in filtration camps and 2,016,000 after 10/45.

D. The statistic of 13.850 million in the archive more than likely includes 11.944 million Army & Navy losses up to 1 July 1945, 12,000 in the Far East 8/1945, 55,800 border troops and 1.836 million returned to the USSR

E. Krivosheyev's figures of 1.283 million POW deaths and 2.164 million forced labor in Germany are derived directly from Axis Pow reports less those released from captivity listed in Soviet figures

Detailed support to be provided in the AM

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 16 Jul 2021 14:29

Krivosheyev's figure of 8.668 million war dead is supported by the the data listing the Army Groups and Fleets. He deducted 557,700 convicts and 94,600 civilians.

On pages 367-442 in the 3rd ed of Krivosheyev the losses of 42 Army Groups and 12 Fleets are listed. The data includes convicts(penal units and executions)and civilians at the front but does not include NKVD security and border troops

In Milllions
  • KIA 5,184.7
    Non combat 534.3
    WIA 1,100.3
    POW/MIA 4,452.3
    Released (2,016.0)
    Irrecoverable losses 9,255.6

    Less Convicts (557.7)
    Less Civilians(94.6)
    Add NKVD 55.8
    Irrecoverable losses 8,659.1
  • Krivosheyev 8.668.4
    Schedules 8.659.1
    Difference 9.3
  • POW 3,300.0
    MIA 500.0
    Convicts 557.7
    Civilians 94.6
    "Pows/MA" 4,452.3
On page 245 and 432 Krivosheyev lists Army and Navy total casualties. Figures do not include Far East 8/45.
  • Army 10,008.4
    Navy 153.8
    Far East 12.0
    WIA 1,100.3
    Released (2,016.0)
    Net Irrecoverable losses 9,258.5
Last edited by thorwald77 on 16 Jul 2021 15:46, edited 1 time in total.

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