If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targets?

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Futurist
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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by Futurist » 12 Jan 2021 02:15

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
12 Jan 2021 01:56
Futurist wrote:
11 Jan 2021 19:58
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
11 Jan 2021 19:04
Thumpalumpacus wrote:
06 Jan 2021 02:08
Futurist wrote:
06 Jan 2021 01:28
FWIW, I'm not sure that Hitler and the Nazis ever actually come to power in Germany if Communists aren't already in power in Russia.
Perhaps, but Hitler had more talking-points than just the Reds. Railing against Versailles and the following ten years may have stood him in good stead in his rise as well, I think. The Depression was going to happen no matter who ruled Russia. He used that as well as "November criminals" to ease his rise to power.

Hard to say whether or not those appeals could carry the day, but it seems pretty possible to me.
That & the racial line. Folks tend to forget that was at the core of Hitlers belief system, and a important leg of his Deutschland uber Alles line. Its also forgotten he drew in a lot of party members & followers with the working mans socialist benefits appeal. So, instead of Jews corrupting Bolshevik socialism & ruling the racially inferior Slav, it would be Jews corrupting the Eastern Facist parties and ruling the racially inferior Slavs.
That would be assuming that Russian Fascists would actually be welcoming towards Jews like Italian Fascists were--and they might very well NOT be!
Doesn't matter. Jewish dominated Bolsheviks were a fiction a lot of people believed, some still believe for that matter. Jews were not welcome in many places, but the presence of a few educated, powerful, or wealthy ones was evidence enough for the nazi party propaganda hacks. The US was controlled by Jews as well according to the nazis & other antisemites.

In any case Hitlers initial promise was to remove Jews from power in Germany. That what got him the antisemite vote there.
The Bolsheviks were actually friendly towards Jews in their early years. Were Jews likewise representative among prominent figures among (non-Nazi) German nationalists in the Imperial German and Weimar German eras?

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by Futurist » 12 Jan 2021 02:18

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
12 Jan 2021 01:43
Futurist wrote:
11 Jan 2021 22:34
...
Other than Poland and Japan, will this Fascist Russia have any additional targets?
They can return to dueling with the Brits over influence in Persia & Afghanistan. Add the fragments of the former Ottoman empire to that list.
Any potential for a major war in any of those places?

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 12 Jan 2021 02:20

A few were. I've never delved into that subject, but recall some numbers presented by assorted authors and discussion board writers. There was clearly a perception in Germany as in many other nations that jews were overrepresented in business, banking, academia, and politics.

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 12 Jan 2021 02:27

Futurist wrote:
12 Jan 2021 02:18
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
12 Jan 2021 01:43
Futurist wrote:
11 Jan 2021 22:34
...
Other than Poland and Japan, will this Fascist Russia have any additional targets?
They can return to dueling with the Brits over influence in Persia & Afghanistan. Add the fragments of the former Ottoman empire to that list.
Any potential for a major war in any of those places?
The two empires fought a near continual proxy war in Afghanistan & adjacent territories for near a century. As fast as one side reached a agreement with one group or another the other side was diligently working to undo it. The culture and traditional politics of the region lent itself to that sort of agitation.

The transportation network in the region does not lend itself to 'major warfare'. I don't know what ideas the Russian or British Empires had for that. In the 1940s the US Army developed plans for large scale operations there. Re: Operation DROPSHOT.

Asia Minor has at least access from the sea.

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by Futurist » 12 Jan 2021 02:37

What about the logistics in Poland and Japan/Korea/China? Do they lend themselves to major warfare?

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by History Learner » 13 Jan 2021 00:58

Recovering 1914 borders is a must, I would imagine, as would gaining the traditional Russian goals of a warm water port along with control of the Straits. To that end, Turkey, Iran and Manchuria seem obvious goals. Dominion over Korea, Bulgaria, and others also seems likely; perhaps a war of the "Wolves and Whales" i.e. Germany and Russia vs the Anglo-Japanese.

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by Futurist » 13 Jan 2021 03:34

History Learner wrote:
13 Jan 2021 00:58
Recovering 1914 borders is a must, I would imagine, as would gaining the traditional Russian goals of a warm water port along with control of the Straits. To that end, Turkey, Iran and Manchuria seem obvious goals. Dominion over Korea, Bulgaria, and others also seems likely; perhaps a war of the "Wolves and Whales" i.e. Germany and Russia vs the Anglo-Japanese.
I'm not necessarily sure that Russia would actually want to recover either Finland or the Polish territories west of the Curzon Line, but the Kresy (eastern Poland), the Baltic countries, and Bessarabia should all be fair game, Yes.

Warm-water ports can be obtained where? Port Arthur? Where else? Constantinople? Obviously Konigsberg would be off-limits due to it being German in this scenario.

Honestly, I'm suspecting that Russia will first move against Japan as a test run--basically, aiming to conquer Manchuria, Outer Mongolia, Inner Mongolia, and Xinjiang for additional space for the Russian people while also aiming to liberate the rest of China from both Japanese rule and other colonial rule. Basically, to test out its military capabilities and also to build itself some goodwill among the peoples of the developing/colonized world. Then, Russia could try launching a short war of aggression in Europe if Germany is also willing to be Russia's partner-in-crime in regards to this (else, Russia might not actually bother with this) before starting yet another war in the Middle East in order to secure the Middle East's vast oil supplies, secure access to the Indian Ocean, and secure yet additional space for the Russian people.

How exactly does all of that sound?

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by History Learner » 13 Jan 2021 03:46

Futurist wrote:
13 Jan 2021 03:34
History Learner wrote:
13 Jan 2021 00:58
Recovering 1914 borders is a must, I would imagine, as would gaining the traditional Russian goals of a warm water port along with control of the Straits. To that end, Turkey, Iran and Manchuria seem obvious goals. Dominion over Korea, Bulgaria, and others also seems likely; perhaps a war of the "Wolves and Whales" i.e. Germany and Russia vs the Anglo-Japanese.
I'm not necessarily sure that Russia would actually want to recover either Finland or the Polish territories west of the Curzon Line, but the Kresy (eastern Poland), the Baltic countries, and Bessarabia should all be fair game, Yes.

Warm-water ports can be obtained where? Port Arthur? Where else? Constantinople? Obviously Konigsberg would be off-limits due to it being German in this scenario.

Honestly, I'm suspecting that Russia will first move against Japan as a test run--basically, aiming to conquer Manchuria, Outer Mongolia, Inner Mongolia, and Xinjiang for additional space for the Russian people while also aiming to liberate the rest of China from both Japanese rule and other colonial rule. Basically, to test out its military capabilities and also to build itself some goodwill among the peoples of the developing/colonized world. Then, Russia could try launching a short war of aggression in Europe if Germany is also willing to be Russia's partner-in-crime in regards to this (else, Russia might not actually bother with this) before starting yet another war in the Middle East in order to secure the Middle East's vast oil supplies, secure access to the Indian Ocean, and secure yet additional space for the Russian people.

How exactly does all of that sound?
Even Stalin and the Soviets coveted restoring the 1914 borders, up to and including Congress Poland and Finland, so I see no reason why a Fascist Russia wouldn't either. The Whites, or at least the Rightist ones, were Monarchists and the like so restoring the Tsar's old domains seems both politically and ideologically consistent, on nationalist grounds. In terms of Lebensraum, it makes even more sense; it's easier to send Russian colonists to Finland than to the Gobi Desert of Inner Mongolia after all.

As far as testing the Russian Army, Poland and Finland also make better targets, given the IJA is a far more able opponent with better logistics than the former two could be with their smaller economies/populations as well as closeness to the Russian heartland.

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by Futurist » 13 Jan 2021 03:58

When did Stalin want to annex Poland? At least after 1920.

Just how many Russian Whites were actually monarchists?

Poland is too packed to be flooded with Russians, but Finland, I wonder. There would have only been 3-4 million Finns in the early 20th century, so definitely more doable. Possibly comparable in effort to flooding the Baltic countries with Russians.

In regards to Russian Army target practice, it could benefit from both kinds of target practice--both the weak kind and the strong kind. It's like with boxing. If you never box strong boxers, you're never going to realize your full potential! ;)

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by Futurist » 13 Jan 2021 23:33

@History Learner: Do you think that there is any way that a Fascist Russia can sufficiently provoke a non-interventionist United States of America to actually get the latter to declare war on them?

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by Futurist » 12 Jun 2021 01:39

History Learner wrote:
13 Jan 2021 03:46
Futurist wrote:
13 Jan 2021 03:34
History Learner wrote:
13 Jan 2021 00:58
Recovering 1914 borders is a must, I would imagine, as would gaining the traditional Russian goals of a warm water port along with control of the Straits. To that end, Turkey, Iran and Manchuria seem obvious goals. Dominion over Korea, Bulgaria, and others also seems likely; perhaps a war of the "Wolves and Whales" i.e. Germany and Russia vs the Anglo-Japanese.
I'm not necessarily sure that Russia would actually want to recover either Finland or the Polish territories west of the Curzon Line, but the Kresy (eastern Poland), the Baltic countries, and Bessarabia should all be fair game, Yes.

Warm-water ports can be obtained where? Port Arthur? Where else? Constantinople? Obviously Konigsberg would be off-limits due to it being German in this scenario.

Honestly, I'm suspecting that Russia will first move against Japan as a test run--basically, aiming to conquer Manchuria, Outer Mongolia, Inner Mongolia, and Xinjiang for additional space for the Russian people while also aiming to liberate the rest of China from both Japanese rule and other colonial rule. Basically, to test out its military capabilities and also to build itself some goodwill among the peoples of the developing/colonized world. Then, Russia could try launching a short war of aggression in Europe if Germany is also willing to be Russia's partner-in-crime in regards to this (else, Russia might not actually bother with this) before starting yet another war in the Middle East in order to secure the Middle East's vast oil supplies, secure access to the Indian Ocean, and secure yet additional space for the Russian people.

How exactly does all of that sound?
Even Stalin and the Soviets coveted restoring the 1914 borders, up to and including Congress Poland and Finland, so I see no reason why a Fascist Russia wouldn't either. The Whites, or at least the Rightist ones, were Monarchists and the like so restoring the Tsar's old domains seems both politically and ideologically consistent, on nationalist grounds. In terms of Lebensraum, it makes even more sense; it's easier to send Russian colonists to Finland than to the Gobi Desert of Inner Mongolia after all.

As far as testing the Russian Army, Poland and Finland also make better targets, given the IJA is a far more able opponent with better logistics than the former two could be with their smaller economies/populations as well as closeness to the Russian heartland.
What about Turkey as a Russian target? It controls Constantinople (Istanbul) and Russia could claim to be reviving the spirit of the Byzantine Empire in any attempt of its to conquer Turkey by force. And back then the Eastern Slav demographic advantage over the Turks was extremely overwhelming.

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by History Learner » 14 Jun 2021 02:56

Futurist wrote:
12 Jun 2021 01:39
History Learner wrote:
13 Jan 2021 03:46
Futurist wrote:
13 Jan 2021 03:34
History Learner wrote:
13 Jan 2021 00:58
Recovering 1914 borders is a must, I would imagine, as would gaining the traditional Russian goals of a warm water port along with control of the Straits. To that end, Turkey, Iran and Manchuria seem obvious goals. Dominion over Korea, Bulgaria, and others also seems likely; perhaps a war of the "Wolves and Whales" i.e. Germany and Russia vs the Anglo-Japanese.
I'm not necessarily sure that Russia would actually want to recover either Finland or the Polish territories west of the Curzon Line, but the Kresy (eastern Poland), the Baltic countries, and Bessarabia should all be fair game, Yes.

Warm-water ports can be obtained where? Port Arthur? Where else? Constantinople? Obviously Konigsberg would be off-limits due to it being German in this scenario.

Honestly, I'm suspecting that Russia will first move against Japan as a test run--basically, aiming to conquer Manchuria, Outer Mongolia, Inner Mongolia, and Xinjiang for additional space for the Russian people while also aiming to liberate the rest of China from both Japanese rule and other colonial rule. Basically, to test out its military capabilities and also to build itself some goodwill among the peoples of the developing/colonized world. Then, Russia could try launching a short war of aggression in Europe if Germany is also willing to be Russia's partner-in-crime in regards to this (else, Russia might not actually bother with this) before starting yet another war in the Middle East in order to secure the Middle East's vast oil supplies, secure access to the Indian Ocean, and secure yet additional space for the Russian people.

How exactly does all of that sound?
Even Stalin and the Soviets coveted restoring the 1914 borders, up to and including Congress Poland and Finland, so I see no reason why a Fascist Russia wouldn't either. The Whites, or at least the Rightist ones, were Monarchists and the like so restoring the Tsar's old domains seems both politically and ideologically consistent, on nationalist grounds. In terms of Lebensraum, it makes even more sense; it's easier to send Russian colonists to Finland than to the Gobi Desert of Inner Mongolia after all.

As far as testing the Russian Army, Poland and Finland also make better targets, given the IJA is a far more able opponent with better logistics than the former two could be with their smaller economies/populations as well as closeness to the Russian heartland.
What about Turkey as a Russian target? It controls Constantinople (Istanbul) and Russia could claim to be reviving the spirit of the Byzantine Empire in any attempt of its to conquer Turkey by force. And back then the Eastern Slav demographic advantage over the Turks was extremely overwhelming.
Yes, they'd make a good target as well.

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by Futurist » 14 Jun 2021 03:15

History Learner wrote:
14 Jun 2021 02:56
Futurist wrote:
12 Jun 2021 01:39
History Learner wrote:
13 Jan 2021 03:46
Futurist wrote:
13 Jan 2021 03:34
History Learner wrote:
13 Jan 2021 00:58
Recovering 1914 borders is a must, I would imagine, as would gaining the traditional Russian goals of a warm water port along with control of the Straits. To that end, Turkey, Iran and Manchuria seem obvious goals. Dominion over Korea, Bulgaria, and others also seems likely; perhaps a war of the "Wolves and Whales" i.e. Germany and Russia vs the Anglo-Japanese.
I'm not necessarily sure that Russia would actually want to recover either Finland or the Polish territories west of the Curzon Line, but the Kresy (eastern Poland), the Baltic countries, and Bessarabia should all be fair game, Yes.

Warm-water ports can be obtained where? Port Arthur? Where else? Constantinople? Obviously Konigsberg would be off-limits due to it being German in this scenario.

Honestly, I'm suspecting that Russia will first move against Japan as a test run--basically, aiming to conquer Manchuria, Outer Mongolia, Inner Mongolia, and Xinjiang for additional space for the Russian people while also aiming to liberate the rest of China from both Japanese rule and other colonial rule. Basically, to test out its military capabilities and also to build itself some goodwill among the peoples of the developing/colonized world. Then, Russia could try launching a short war of aggression in Europe if Germany is also willing to be Russia's partner-in-crime in regards to this (else, Russia might not actually bother with this) before starting yet another war in the Middle East in order to secure the Middle East's vast oil supplies, secure access to the Indian Ocean, and secure yet additional space for the Russian people.

How exactly does all of that sound?
Even Stalin and the Soviets coveted restoring the 1914 borders, up to and including Congress Poland and Finland, so I see no reason why a Fascist Russia wouldn't either. The Whites, or at least the Rightist ones, were Monarchists and the like so restoring the Tsar's old domains seems both politically and ideologically consistent, on nationalist grounds. In terms of Lebensraum, it makes even more sense; it's easier to send Russian colonists to Finland than to the Gobi Desert of Inner Mongolia after all.

As far as testing the Russian Army, Poland and Finland also make better targets, given the IJA is a far more able opponent with better logistics than the former two could be with their smaller economies/populations as well as closeness to the Russian heartland.
What about Turkey as a Russian target? It controls Constantinople (Istanbul) and Russia could claim to be reviving the spirit of the Byzantine Empire in any attempt of its to conquer Turkey by force. And back then the Eastern Slav demographic advantage over the Turks was extremely overwhelming.
Yes, they'd make a good target as well.
Would aiming to conquer all of Turkey by force actually be doable? If so, where would the Turks be expelled to?

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by nuyt » 25 Sep 2021 19:48

So far the thinking on the above thread has concentrated on a fascist Russia expanding its borders in the immediate near abroad. But what if this Russia starts looking for Lebensraum and colonies elsewhere in the world? Russia in the 1920s starts a diplomatic offensive in Latin America and in countries that are not yet occupied by a western nation, like Ethiopia, Siam as well as smaller nations with colonies, like Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, etc. It may also try to buy some small colonies (islands) from any of the above. It's Navy is rejuvenated and expanded and starts looking for deep warm water ports in smaller nations' colonies.
Also interesting is how fascist Russia will modernize and grow its fleet, air force and army equipment. Usually foreign partners are needed and the Soviets used Germans for weaponry, allowing test facilities and buying prototypes of guns, etc.
Who would be the business partners of fascist Russia? The Germans again no doubt, but how would UK, French and Italian navy designers feel about rearming Russia? They would all line up, if their respective govts allow them...

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Re: If the Whites win the Russian Civil War & Russia subsequently goes Fascist, which are its most likely expansion targ

Post by Linkagain » 01 Oct 2021 21:24

Well remember for nearly 200 yearsthe Russians kept trying to a warm water port....
Constananoble comes to Mind....down the galliopi penusuallia take the City of Constananoble...exhile the Turks to Inner turkey....ally with the Greeks to liberate the ancient greek communites on Western and souther coasts....and on ther other part take Northern and Eastern Communites that have armenian communites....establish a firm presence....trade and defense treateies with Greece and Armenia,,,as for Japan...Russia amkes Big noises of couquering Mongolia and China..Japan rushes the bulk of its forces to China and gets bogged down in actual fact Russia encourges Korean Liberation Group in return Russia does not occup Korea but it does become the major trading partner..... :thumbsup:

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