Germans and Slavs intermarriage

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George L Gregory
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by George L Gregory » 15 Jan 2021 18:47

Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2021 18:35
Hi GLG,

You ask; "What percentage of Austrians do you think have Czech ancestry?"

Probably virtually all unless (1) they are from recent immigrant stock or (2) from the head of a very obscure Alpine valley consistently more prone down the centuries to emigration rather than immigration. The number of the latter, if they exist at all, must be tiny.

It is estimated that virtually every Briton who is not of recent immigrant stock is descended from King Edward I and everyone of his contemporaries in these isles who has left descendants today. I doubt anywhere, except a few long isolated islands, is much different.

Cheers,

Sid.
Do you have any sources for your claim?

It’s worth mentioning that Germanic tribes had settled in Bohemia before the Slavs settled there. For hundreds of years Bohemia was a part of the Holy Roman Empire.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jan 2021 19:50

Hi GLG,

Which claim?

Both seem rather uncontroversial.

If it is the Edward I claim, try: http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/ ... escent.php

Its conclusion is: "There is an extremely high probabilty that a modern English person with predominantly English ancestry descends from Edward III, at a very minimum over 99%, and more likely very close to 100%. The number of descendants of Edward III must therefore include nearly all of the population of England, and probably much of the populations of the rest of the UK and Eire, as well as many millions in the USA, former British colonies and Europe, so 100 million seems a conservative estimate."

The same maths apply to every one of his contemporaries in these isles who has left descendants today.

Cheers,

Sid.

George L Gregory
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by George L Gregory » 15 Jan 2021 20:59

Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2021 19:50
Hi GLG,

Which claim?

Both seem rather uncontroversial.

If it is the Edward I claim, try: http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/ ... escent.php

Its conclusion is: "There is an extremely high probabilty that a modern English person with predominantly English ancestry descends from Edward III, at a very minimum over 99%, and more likely very close to 100%. The number of descendants of Edward III must therefore include nearly all of the population of England, and probably much of the populations of the rest of the UK and Eire, as well as many millions in the USA, former British colonies and Europe, so 100 million seems a conservative estimate."

The same maths apply to every one of his contemporaries in these isles who has left descendants today.

Cheers,

Sid.
The claim about Austrians.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jan 2021 22:16

Hi GLG,

I would remind you that I wasn't making a claim. I was answering a question posed by you about what I thought to the best of my ability.

I think it is true for the same reason that we Brits are all almost certainly descended from Edward I and all his contemporaries in the British Isles who have left descendants today. That is why I brought it up.

I would also refer you again to https://brilliantmaps.com/the-genetic-map-of-europe/

It would appear from this that the genetic profile of Austria is closer to that of the Czech Republic than it is to Germany.

Cheers,

Sid.

George L Gregory
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by George L Gregory » 15 Jan 2021 22:54

Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2021 22:16
Hi GLG,

I would remind you that I wasn't making a claim. I was answering a question posed by you about what I thought to the best of my ability.

I think it is true for the same reason that we Brits are all almost certainly descended from Edward I and all his contemporaries in the British Isles who have left descendants today. That is why I brought it up.

I would also refer you again to https://brilliantmaps.com/the-genetic-map-of-europe/

It would appear from this that the genetic profile of Austria is closer to that of the Czech Republic than it is to Germany.

Cheers,

Sid.
Perhaps you missed the following from the link you posted:

“ I wish those labels would go away on this oft-reposted map. To clarify, those labels have no scientific meaning. They are what the original creator of the map assigned as ethnic labels to haplogroups, but are just plain misleading as haplogroups are haplogroups and nothing else.

For example I’ve seen this map used to argue “Poland is more Aryan than Germany”, which makes no sense as the R1a haplogroup isn’t an Aryan haplogroup, it’s just the R1a haplogroup. Interestingly enough, the R1a haplogroup is found primarily around the Proto-Indo-European homeland and in India, so in the case of that particular haplogroup there is a definite correspondence between descendants of Indo-Europeans and the haplogroup.

But the case of R1a is the exception not the rule. Almost all of Europe speaks IE languages yet the haplogroups are so diverse.”

Haplogroups don’t define ancestry or ethnicity.

So do you have any sources to back up your claim that “probably virtually all” Austrians have Czech ancestry?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jan 2021 23:11

Hi GLG,

Yes, I did miss that.

Who is this Reddit source "tigranater"? Why should we pay attention to him?

However, it doesn't really matter, because he is not disputing the information on the map, just how he has seen it used.

It would still appear from this that the genetic profile of Austria is closer to that of the Czech Republic than it is to Germany.

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 15 Jan 2021 23:25, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jan 2021 23:13

Double post.

George L Gregory
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by George L Gregory » 15 Jan 2021 23:26

Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2021 23:11
Hi GLG,

Yes, I did miss that.

Who is this Reddit source "tigranater"? Why should we pay attention to him?

However, it doesn't really matter, because he is not disputing the information on the map, just how he has seen it used.

It would still appear from this that the genetic profile of Austria is closer to that of the Czech Republic than it is to Germany.

Cheers,

Sid.
Haplogroups (genetic markers) don’t define ancestry or ethnicity.

Do you have another source? It’s such a far-fetched claim that isn’t supported by any evidence so I think that you should reconsider your claim.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jan 2021 23:31

Hi GLG,

This is what I have found on Tigranter "I am Tigranater and I upload a variety of videos. Recently I am uploading gameplay videos. I have an EasyCap DC60+ to record my gameplay. I have tons of gameplay footage stockpiled to upload! I don't ask for subs or for Sub4Subs and I don't usually make things for other people so please don't ask for any of them. Subscribe."

By comparison, I am quite happy with my source.

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 15 Jan 2021 23:34, edited 2 times in total.

George L Gregory
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by George L Gregory » 15 Jan 2021 23:33

Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2021 23:31
Hi GLG,

This is what I have found on Tigranter "I am Tigranater and I upload a variety of videos. Recently I am uploading gameplay videos. I have an EasyCap DC60+ to record my gameplay. I have tons of ..."

By comparison, I am quite happy with my source.

Cheers,

Sid.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jan 2021 23:37

HGi GLG,

My thoughts exactly. If ever I saw a :roll:, Tigranater would be it

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. That was my first ever Smiley. May it be my last.

George L Gregory
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Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by George L Gregory » 15 Jan 2021 23:44

Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2021 23:37
HGi GLG,

My thoughts exactly. If ever I saw a :roll:, Tigranater would be it

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. That was my first ever Smiley. May it be my last.
You’re taking the biscuit.

Either provide a source for your claim or retract it.

If you don’t do one of those two options then I’ll not be engaging in anymore debates with you which would be quite a shame because I enjoy reading most of your posts.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Jan 2021 00:30

HI GLG,

Firstly, it is not my claim. You asked me for my thoughts on the subject and I obliged.

Secondly, my source is at least traceable and nobody has questioned the statistics in it - not even your reference, the pseudonymous Reddit source "Tigranater".

Now why would I withdraw my source when the critic you use, Tigranater, says this of himself: "I am Tigranater and I upload a variety of videos. Recently I am uploading gameplay videos. I have an EasyCap DC60+ to record my gameplay. I have tons of gameplay footage stockpiled to upload! I don't ask for subs or for Sub4Subs and I don't usually make things for other people so please don't ask for any of them. Subscribe."?

What makes you think that Tigranater is an authority on the interpretation of DNA results?

Cheers,

Sid.

George L Gregory
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by George L Gregory » 17 Jan 2021 12:28

From what I have heard, generally speaking the Nazis (although some Nazis may have thought differently) regarded the Slavs collectively as racially inferior, but they seemed to have persecuted their enemies during WW2, namely the Poles and the Russians, much more than other Slavs like their allies such as the Romanians. Also, the Nazis didn't even consider some Slavs to be Slavs - they thought that Croats were of Germanic origin because they were allegedly descended from the Germanic tribe the Goths, Hitler considered the Czechs to be descended from the Mongoloids, etc. What is the most important thing to remember is that the Slavs who were considered to be fit to be Germanized weren't actually regarded as Slavs but people living in Eastern Europe who were descended from ancient Germanic tribes who still had their Nordic blood.
Hitler also opposed racial mixture with Slavs (except with those deemed racially on par with Germans). In April 1940 Hitler (through Bormann) instructed his Interior Ministry to dismiss any government official who had sexual relations with Poles or Czechs. After that time all Germans wanting to marry Czechs had to get permission from Nazi authorities. Ten days after invading Poland in September 1939 Hitler told Himmler that if any Polish POWs were caught having sexual relations with German women, the man would be shot, while the woman, while the woman would be publicly pilloried and sent to a concentration camp. In October 1940 Hitler again warned some of his closest associates about the perils of allowing racial mixture between Poles and Germans. In February 1942 Hitler issued a decree forbidding German soldiers from having sexual relations with Polish women. Any Polish woman caught having sexual relations with a German would be committed to a brothel.

When Germany began importing millions of Slavic slave laborers in the early 1940s, the Nazi regime did everything possible to prevent interracial sexual relations. In most cases they either sent Slavic women along with the men or else established brothels with Slavic women for them. They issued strict warnings to both Germans and the Slavic workers not to engage in sexual relations with each other. Starting in February 1940 all Polish laborers in Germany had to wear a symbol marking their pariah status. Every German farmer employing Slavic workers received a notice stating, "Keep German blood pure! That holds for men as well as for women! Just as it is the greatest shame to have sexual relations with a Jew, so every German who has intimate relations with a Polish man or women transgresses. German women who were caught having sexual relations with Slavic laborers were usually pilloried and then sent to a concentration camp. The Slavic male offender was executed.

Ironically, the Nazis did not automatically reject as racially inferior all progeny produced by German-Slav miscegenation. Hitler decreed in October 1943 that children of German men and native women in the Eastern occupied zones would be cared for by the German state, as long as they were deemed "racially valuable." These children were often taken from their mothers and sent to Germany to be raised by German parents or in German institutions. Likewise, if foreign women workers became pregnant while in Germany, Himmler directed that children deemed "good racially" would be raised in special homes in Germany, while those considered "bad racially" would be sent to separate institutions.
Richard Weikart, Hitler’s Ethic, The Nazi Pursuit of Evolutionary Progress, pages 146-147.
Many scholars who have investigated Nazi policies toward Slavs have concluded, however, that they were driven more by economic necessities than by racial ideology, as though these factor were mutually contradictory. Sometimes these conclusions seem to derive from a lack of understanding of Nazi racial ideology, especially in relation to Slavs. Nazi racial theorists and policy makers did not—contrary to a popular misconception—believe that Germans were pure representatives of the Nordic or Aryan race. Nor did they think that all Slavs were non-Nordic. They claimed that both Germans and Slavs were mixed racial types. Though they considered most Slavs racially inferior to most Germans, some Nazi racial theorists claimed, surprisingly, that some Slavs were racially superior to some Germans!

When we examine Nazi ideology and racial policies toward Poles and Czechs, we find remarkable consistency between the views of German anthropologists and those of Nazi officials. Even before the Nazis came to power in 1933, German anthropology to a large degree had been permeated with similar racial ideals. Once the Nazi regime was established, anthropologists exerted considerable influence, both directly and indirectly, on Nazi racial policies. Gretchen Schafft remarks in her book, "The anthropologists' statements [during the Nazi period] and Hitler's program fit hand in glove."

When Hitler railed against Germanizing Poles and Czechs in Mein Kampf, he was criticizing a policy that determined one's membership in the German Volk by linguistic or cultural criteria. Otherwise he stressed the preponderance of race. Hitler never discussed in sufficient detail his views on the composition of the Slavic races and his position on Germanization to determine if the Germanization policies after 1939 marked a departure from previous ideology.

This is probably the clearest statement by Hitler before 1939 concerning his racial policies toward Poles. However vague is Hitler's statement, if we compare it with actual Nazi policies toward Poles after 1939, we will observe continuity. As regards isolation, the Nazis did their utmost to prevent miscegenation between Germans and Poles. They deported hundreds of thousands of Poles to make space for ethnic Germans resettled from the Baltic States, Bessarabia, and Bukovina.

However, the differences in treatment of the Czechs and the Poles may have been driven neither by economic considerations nor by racial ideology. In a pamphlet published by the Racial Policy Office and meant exclusively for Nazi Party officials, Egon Leuschner discussed the ideological underpinnings of National Socialist Policy toward Foreign Peeoples. Leuschner claimed that his pamphlet represented the Nazi Party's official position, and the preface was written by Walter Gross, the head of the Racial Policy Office. Leuschner denied that Czechs and Poles were being treated differently based on their racial composition. While he acknowledged that a higher percentage of Czechs than Poles could be Germanized, he did not claim that the differences were due to economic considerations. Rather, he asserted that it was because of contingent historical events, especially the way the two countries were subdued by Germany.

First, the Nazis deemed the vast majority of Poles racially inferior. Second, according to Nazi racial thought, Poles with Nordic racial features, if they refused to abandon their Polish identity, were actually more dangerous than those of the inferior East Baltic race. Destroying the Nordic leadership of the Poles was thus essential to keeping Poland under control. Nonetheless, as I have shown above, the Nazis did hope to Germanize as many Nordic Poles (and other Slavs) as possible, as long as they would cooperate. Leuschner confirms my interpretation of Nazi policy toward the Slavs by rejecting the view that Nazi policy toward Slavs was on the whole haphazard or inconsistent. The whole point of his pamphlet was the exact opposite: to show how Nazi policy was consistent with its racial ideology. He explained that Germans, Poles, and Czechs contained a mixture of races. While the Nordic race predominated among the Germans, the Poles and Czechs belonged mostly to the Eastern and East Baltic races. However, the Poles and Czechs also had some Nordic blood, especially from German migrants in the past who had adopted the Polish or Czech languages. These Nordic Slavs could be reincorporated in the German Volk, but the long-term goal for the bulk of the Slavic population was deportation from lands conquered by Germany. Leuschner admitted that wartime economic necessities made this goal unattainable for the time being. He further argued that even after the war it would take a long time to carry out the said policies. Despite this intervening delay, however, Polish workers in Germany during the war were identified with an insignia to keep them from mixing with Germans.

The historians who have argued that the Nazi regime set aside its racial policy in formulating policies toward Slavs evince a slight misunderstanding of Nazi racial ideology. Nazis did not consider Germans or Slavs pure racial types, but mixtures of several European races.
Anton Weiss Wendt, Eradicating Differences: The Treatment of Minorities in Nazi-Dominated Europe, pages 62-78.

John Connelly's short pamphlet Nazis and Slavs: From Racial Theory to Racist Practice is an excellent source for someone to read about how the Nazis treated different Slavic ethnic groups. Slovaks and Croats were allowed their own puppet states. Although the Czechs were treated worse than the Slovaks, ordinary life for most Czechs was 'normal' - despite Hitler's anti-Czech views which were formed during his early years in Vienna. Poles were treated awfully right from the start of the invasion of Poland which started WW2. The Nazis did not occupy Bulgaria by military force and even allowed the Bulgarian government to do their own thing with regard to Bulgarian Jews. Slavs who lived in the Soviet Union were subjected to a policy of extermination as soon as the Germans had invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941 - this is striking because many Ukrainians initially regarded the German soldiers as liberators, although this was very short-lived due to the actions of the German soldiers.

George L Gregory
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Re: Germans and Slavs intermarriage

Post by George L Gregory » 17 Jan 2021 12:50

GregSingh wrote:
14 Jan 2021 09:13
As for Protectorate I think I commented on this one already on the Forum a while ago somewhere...
Basically there was a law forbidding Germans to have any sexual intercourse with Czechs, but it wasn't really enforced, with some exeptions, eg. in Waffen-SS.
The Gestapo issued a series of instructions on 16 November 1942 and with regard to sexual relations between Germans and workers in the Protectorate, the instructions stated:
(2) Sexual relations between subjects of the Protectorate and Germans is not allowed, unless they have received permission to marry from the President of the governments.
Michael Burleigh, Wolfgang Wippermann, The Racial State: Germany 1933-1945, page 301.

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