Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

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tupolev16
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Re: Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

Post by tupolev16 » 16 Jan 2021 22:39

Good evening, Jerryasher,

"reinforce the Russian Fleet in the Baltic" That's absolutely erroneous idea. To start with the fact that even Grand Fleet would not manage it to Baltic thru German navy, only few submarines broke thru and waged a successful war versus Germans there. But surface ships - never.
The idea was different: to bolster Russian presence in Mediterranean (during Gallipoli campaign only protected cruiser "Askold" took part in Turkish positions bombardment), so, "to show flag" more ships were needed.
But more important was to get some capital ships to Northern fleet which had only dozen of coal-fired old destroyers. Why it was vital? Russian army was partially dependent on military supplies from the Allies however routes to Baltic were blocked by mighty Germans, Black Sea connection also blocked (Gallipoli campaign failed). Thus, the only sensible way was via Northern route to Murmansk and Arkhangelsk. To guard convoys from Britain it was decided in early 1916 to buy ships from Japan, namely three ships captured by Japanese during Russo-Japanese war. They were the following:
1. Famous protected cruiser "Varyag" ("Soya" in Japanese service), rather psycological purchase.
2. 2-nd class battleship "Peresvet" ("Sagami" in Japanese service).
3. "Chesma" battleship ("Tango" in japanese service and "Poltava" in Russian service before capture by Japanese)

Both battleships were already somewhat old for Russo-Japanese war 1904-1905, in 1916 it was a complete junk (a lot of non-repaired mechanisms, many guns had cannon barrels lifecycles ended, and etc). Idiots from Saint Petersburg bought useless ships for hell of the money (for "Chesma" they payed 7 million yens, for "Varyag" almost 4 million golden roubles), while japanese secured a great deal.
To make things worse, on its way to White Sea "Peresvet" struck German mine near Port-Said and sank.
Other two ships took expensive repair works in England and also were of little value.
Best wishes,
Tupolev16

jerryasher
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Re: Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

Post by jerryasher » 16 Jan 2021 23:35

Thank you Tuupolev 16. So the initial article was incorrect in referencing Baltic not Northern Fleet. Is there anyway to pin down more precisely the chronology.? The Imperial Russian naval operations are not well reported in English. Note my question as to Russian (not Imperial) destroyers in August 1918 at Vladivostok as escorts for British ships. Likewise ships( under 1,000 tons--tugs) were built for Russia in China 1915-1916--I have no details--but at least four were completed 1916-1917. When ordered--was it four --or more? Again thank you. The sale and return of Soya, Sagami and Tango being among the most cited Russian items.

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fontessa
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Re: Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

Post by fontessa » 17 Jan 2021 04:11

Hello Dmitry,
tupolev16 wrote:
16 Jan 2021 14:04
Which book is the source of information?
My sources werte web pages, not boks.
tupolev16 wrote:
16 Jan 2021 14:04
Could you kindly clear out this:
"Clacified as 雑役船 Miscellaneous Ship (掃海船 Minesweep Ship): 23 August 1913"
What does it mean? a ship was set both for miscellaneous services and minesweeping?
雑役船 Miscellaneous Ship was a large classification of naval vessels.
掃海船 Minesweep Ship and 水雷標的船 Torpedo Target Ship were detailed classifications of it.

fontessa

tupolev16
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Re: Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

Post by tupolev16 » 17 Jan 2021 11:07

jerryasher wrote:
16 Jan 2021 23:35
Thank you Tuupolev 16. So the initial article was incorrect in referencing Baltic not Northern Fleet. Is there anyway to pin down more precisely the chronology.? The Imperial Russian naval operations are not well reported in English. Note my question as to Russian (not Imperial) destroyers in August 1918 at Vladivostok as escorts for British ships. Likewise ships( under 1,000 tons--tugs) were built for Russia in China 1915-1916--I have no details--but at least four were completed 1916-1917. When ordered--was it four --or more? Again thank you. The sale and return of Soya, Sagami and Tango being among the most cited Russian items.
Hello, Jerryasher,
Before WW1 there were around 20 already obsolete coal-fired Russian destroyers in Vladivostok, an auxiliary cruiser "Eagle" but no capital ships. Couple of destroyers and "Eagle" were on training trip to the tropical waters in late 1917 when the civil war in Russia started. Part of the crews desserted, as a result one of the destroyers "Boikiy" was kept by British in HongKong, auxiliary cruiser was disarmed in Saigon and served as a cargo ship delivering goods between French colonies (to earn money for Russian sailors who did not receive funds from civil war shaken country), while destroyer "Grozniy" was loaned to the French navy and served almost one year as "Quentin Roosevelt" named after the son of the former US president T.Roosvelt who perished in his plane at Western front in 1918. All 3 ships returned to Vladivostok in autumn 1919.
As per Chinese tugs.... Thank you for revealing it to me, never heard about it before. I surfed a bit and found out that they were actually icebreakers from China (not tugs). The reason is simple: Vladivostok port waters freeze in winter time, so to proceed with shipping an icebreaker is a must. Two were ordered at "Shanghai dock and engineering" right before WW1, namely, "Cossack Khabarov" and "Cossack Poiarkov" (both came in 1916), later one more ( a modified version with more powerful machine) was ordered under the name "Baikal" (came in march 1917). The fourth icebreaker (most powerful) in fact came from England (built in Newcastle), the name was "Dobrinya Nikitich" (came right in time for 1916/1917 winter season).
Furthermore, for the mild winter of 1915/1916 two small Chinese icebreakers were loaned: "Ching-Ling" and "Tung-Ling".
Last edited by tupolev16 on 17 Jan 2021 11:22, edited 2 times in total.

tupolev16
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Re: Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

Post by tupolev16 » 17 Jan 2021 11:08

fontessa wrote:
17 Jan 2021 04:11
Hello Dmitry,
tupolev16 wrote:
16 Jan 2021 14:04
Which book is the source of information?
My sources werte web pages, not boks.
tupolev16 wrote:
16 Jan 2021 14:04
Could you kindly clear out this:
"Clacified as 雑役船 Miscellaneous Ship (掃海船 Minesweep Ship): 23 August 1913"
What does it mean? a ship was set both for miscellaneous services and minesweeping?
雑役船 Miscellaneous Ship was a large classification of naval vessels.
掃海船 Minesweep Ship and 水雷標的船 Torpedo Target Ship were detailed classifications of it.

fontessa
Hello, Fontessa,

Thank you for clarifying. Much obliged.

Best wishes,
Tupolev16

jerryasher
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Re: Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

Post by jerryasher » 17 Jan 2021 23:59

Thank you Tupolev16: Miramarshipindex lists: General-Adjutant Sukhomlinov no yard # 450 tons
Kazak Poyarkoz yard # 1385 450 tons
Ilya Muromets yard # 1390 444 tons
Baikal yard # 1442 779 tons
An aside--I suspect yard #'s are in error and should read 385, 390 and 442 ---BUT I don't know. "Eagle," I suppose is Orel,
Is there anything like a list of merchant ships being used on the Vladivostok-Japan route in terms of carrying Japanese arms to Russia/
Again many thanks.----Note your Cossack Khabarov ---perhaps renamed Sukhomlinov or Muromets?

tupolev16
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Re: Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

Post by tupolev16 » 18 Jan 2021 17:52

jerryasher wrote:
17 Jan 2021 23:59
Thank you Tupolev16: Miramarshipindex lists: General-Adjutant Sukhomlinov no yard # 450 tons
Kazak Poyarkoz yard # 1385 450 tons
Ilya Muromets yard # 1390 444 tons
Baikal yard # 1442 779 tons
An aside--I suspect yard #'s are in error and should read 385, 390 and 442 ---BUT I don't know. "Eagle," I suppose is Orel,
Is there anything like a list of merchant ships being used on the Vladivostok-Japan route in terms of carrying Japanese arms to Russia/
Again many thanks.----Note your Cossack Khabarov ---perhaps renamed Sukhomlinov or Muromets?
Hello, Jerryasher. Here's the ref. on the article that contains almost complete info about ships built in China in that years. A lot of photos
https://lot1959.livejournal.com/47715.html
It's in Russian but with google translate you can make it out.
Best wishes,
Tupolev16

jerryasher
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Re: Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

Post by jerryasher » 18 Jan 2021 19:35

Good morning Tupolev16: Many thanks--that settles that. I am going to enjoy my whole day and I hope you do to. You should know that you made at least, one person, very happy. Thank you.

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fontessa
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Re: Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

Post by fontessa » 15 May 2021 19:23

The below is the data for 福岡成一 Fukuoka Seiichi.

ijnfleetadmiral, please correct / add the data if necessary.

福岡成一 Fukuoka Seiichi (30) (155/187)
Born: ??? in Kyoto Prefecture
ENS Candidate: 14 December 1902
ENS: 28 December 1903
LT:
Chiyoda Duvsion Officer: ??? - 20 November 1908 (108.11.21.Frm5)
17th Boat Unit Skipper: 20 November 1908 (108.11.21.Frm5)
Asama Division Officer: ??? - 12 April 1911 (1911.4.13.Frm11)
Shikinami Commander: 12 April 1911 - 10 August 1911 (1911.4.13.Frm11 / 1911.8.11.Frm2)
(ADD) Naval Gunnery School Instructor: 12 April 1911 - 10 August 1911 (1911.4.13.Frm11 / 1911.8.11.Frm2)
Hibiki Commander: 10 August 1911 - 27 December 1911 (1911.8.11.Frm2 / 1911.12.28.Frm22)
Shikinami Commander: 27 December 1911 - 5 July 1912 (1911.12.28.Frm22 / 1912.7.6.Frm2)
Yamabiko Commander: 5 July 1912 - 1 December 1912 (1912.7.6.Frm2 / 1912.12.2.Frm14)
(ADD) Naval Gunnery School Instructor: 5 July 1912 - 1 December 1912 (1912.7.6.Frm2 / 1912.12.2.Frm14)
Itsukushima Division Officer: 1 December 1912 - 18 November 1913 (1912.12.2.Frm14 / 1913.11.20.Frm2)
Ariake Commander: 18 November 1913 - ??? (1913.11.20.Frm2)
LCDR:
Tachibana Commander: ??? - 13 December 1915 (1915.12.14.Frm13)
Temporal Southern Islands Defense Corps: 13 December 1915 - 1 September 1916 (1915.12.14.Frm13 / 1916.9.2.Frm3)
Yokosuka Naval Air Group Airplane Unit Commander: 1 September 1916 - ??? (1916.9.2.Frm3)
CDR:
Yokosuka Naval Air Group Executive Officer: 1 July 1919 - 5 February 1921 (1919.7.3.Frm5 / 1921.2.7.Frm1)
(ADD) Yokosuka Naval Air Group Staff Officer: 20 November 1919 - 5 February 1921 (1919.11.21.Frm4 / 1921.2.7.Frm1)
Yokosuka Naval Air Group Staff Officer: 5 February 1921 - 4 April 1921 (1921.2.7.Frm1 / 1921.4.5.Frm7)
Yakamiya Commander: 4 April 1921 - 1 December 1922 (1921.4.5.Frm7 / 1922.12.2.Frm8)
CAPT:
Sasebo Naval Air Group Commander: 1 December 1922 - 1 December 1924 (1922.12.2.Frm8 / 1924.12.2.Frm11)
Nisshin Commander: 1 December 1924 - 20 April 1925 (1924.12.2.Frm11 / 1925.4.21.rm3)
Attached to Yokosuka Naval Ditinct: 20 April 1925 - 16 December 1925 (1925.4.21.rm3 / 1925.12.17.Frm4)
Transferred to Rsurve: 16 December 1925 (1925.12.17.Frm4)
Died: 14 Marh 1981

fontessa

tupolev16
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Re: Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

Post by tupolev16 » 15 May 2021 21:21

Dear Fontessa!
Thank VERY MUCH!!!

Best wishes,
Tu16

jerryasher
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Re: Minesweepers at Qingdao 1914

Post by jerryasher » 16 May 2021 01:41

Thank you --a data point to enter--it's fun MANY THANKS.

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