"Skanderbeg" cuffitle

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Ivan Ž.
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"Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by Ivan Ž. » 23 Dec 2018 16:30

There is a popular belief (misconception) that the well known "Skanderbeg" cuffitle was made for the 21st SS Division (of the same name).
It is stated so even in the Axis History Factbook (twice):
https://www.axishistory.com/books/119-g ... ische-nr-1
https://www.axishistory.com/various/124 ... nor-titles

However, according to Kaltenegger ("Totenkopf & Edelweiß", p. 89), the cufftitle was actually made for the 14th SS Regiment (2nd regiment of the "Prinz Eugen" Division), which was named "Skanderbeg" after the 21st SS Division was disbanded. This makes perfect sense, since the 1st regiment of the "Prinz Eugen" Division (named "Artur Phleps") was also authorised to wear a cufftitle, while non-Germanic SS divisions generally weren't authorised to wear them (except for the French "Charlemagne" Division). It especially made no sense that arguably the worst non-Germanic division, the 21st, was authorised to wear one. (As far as I remember, the only non-Germanic cufftitle that was made, besides the French one, was "Osttürkischer Waffen-Verband der SS", and it was produced in green colour, instead of the usual black.)

Does anyone, by any chance, have any document regarding the authorisation of the "Skanderbeg" cufftitle?

Cheers,
Ivan

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DFrolov1992
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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by DFrolov1992 » 24 Dec 2018 02:18

Ivan Ž. wrote:
23 Dec 2018 16:30
There is a popular belief (misconception) that the well known "Skanderbeg" cuffitle was made for the 21st SS Division (of the same name).
It is stated so even in the Axis History Factbook (twice):
https://www.axishistory.com/books/119-g ... ische-nr-1
https://www.axishistory.com/various/124 ... nor-titles

However, according to Kaltenegger ("Totenkopf & Edelweiß", p. 89), the cufftitle was actually made for the 14th SS Regiment (2nd regiment of the "Prinz Eugen" Division), which was named "Skanderbeg" after the 21st SS Division was disbanded. This makes perfect sense, since the 1st regiment of the "Prinz Eugen" Division (named "Artur Phleps") was also authorised to wear a cufftitle, while non-Germanic SS divisions generally weren't authorised to wear them (except for the French "Charlemagne" Division). It especially made no sense that arguably the worst non-Germanic division, the 21st, was authorised to wear one. (As far as I remember, the only non-Germanic cufftitle that was made, besides the French one, was "Osttürkischer Waffen-Verband der SS", and it was produced in green colour, instead of the usual black.)

Does anyone, by any chance, have any document regarding the authorisation of the "Skanderbeg" cufftitle?

Cheers,
Ivan
Hi Ivan

I think such an order does not exist. The question of the uniform of the Albanian SS division was discussed during Mehdi Bey Frasheri trip to Berlin. In the general list of all the details of the uniform intended for the Albanian soldier of the SS troops, a cufftitle was not provided.The full version of the document dealing with these issues can be found in the source: NARA T120 R1757 E024893

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by Ivan Ž. » 24 Dec 2018 16:11

Hello, Dmitry, and thank you for the reply.

I assumed that a document regarding a cufftitle authorisation for the 21st SS Division didn't exist / was never made; I would like to know if there is a document regarding a cufftitle authorisation for the 14th SS Regiment.

Cheers,
Ivan

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balkanguy44
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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by balkanguy44 » 29 Dec 2018 08:42

I've found an "original" Skanderbeg cufftitle which is for sale (1500€) on weize.net. If there is no proof that there was a cufftitle for this division, it's fake?
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BG44

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by Ivan Ž. » 29 Dec 2018 12:26

You didn't read the posts carefully. The cufftitle was definitely authorised and issued; what is unclear is when and for which unit: the Albanian division or the German regiment - or perhaps even the German regimental group (all logic points to one of the German units).

Cheers,
Ivan

PS
For those who didn't know:
- Albanian Division "Skanderbeg" was disbanded in Oct./Nov. 1944 (after only six months of existence)
- the Albanian personnel was disarmed and the German personnel formed the Regimental Group "Skanderbeg"
- in early 1945 the remnants of the group were absorbed into the 14th SS Regiment (of the "Prinz Eugen" Division), which was named "Skanderbeg"

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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by balkanguy44 » 29 Dec 2018 15:19

Hello Ivan,

Oh my fault, sorry.

Did they really disarm every single Albanian or just most of them?
Cheers,
BG44

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by Ivan Ž. » 29 Dec 2018 15:41

From the army group (E) command order dated 24 October 1944: "SS Division 'Skanderbeg', after disarming all non-German troops, is to be reformed as Regimental Group 'Skanderbeg'." Now, whether every single non-German was disarmed, that I can't know, but that was the order. (Note: the German regimental group, which didn't have enough manpower, was filled in with Kriegsmarine members. If one takes a look at the German Red Cross missing persons lists, for example, one will find many sailors listed in the 'Skanderbeg' section.)

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Ivan

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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by balkanguy44 » 29 Dec 2018 21:02

Okay thank you, Ivan.
Cheers,
BG44

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FransN
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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by FransN » 24 Jan 2021 11:56

I recently raised the following question in another thread, but will repeat it here (thanks for the suggestion Ivan!), since it may be of relevance for the cuff-title issue as well:
Does anyone know of an official order by the SS-Führungshauptamt (SS-FHA) that SS-Frw. Geb. Jg. Rgt. 14 should be named "Skanderbeg", upon the absorption of the remnants of SS-Rgt. KGr. "Skanderbeg" into its second battalion (II./Rgt. 14) in Winter 1945?
Regards,
Frans

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DFrolov1992
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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by DFrolov1992 » 25 Jan 2021 03:27

FransN wrote:
24 Jan 2021 11:56
I recently raised the following question in another thread, but will repeat it here (thanks for the suggestion Ivan!), since it may be of relevance for the cuff-title issue as well:
Does anyone know of an official order by the SS-Führungshauptamt (SS-FHA) that SS-Frw. Geb. Jg. Rgt. 14 should be named "Skanderbeg", upon the absorption of the remnants of SS-Rgt. KGr. "Skanderbeg" into its second battalion (II./Rgt. 14) in Winter 1945?
Regards,
Frans
Hello Frans!

In the military archive of Belgrade there is a group of documents allegedly dedicated to the division "Skanderbeg", but in fact related to the SS-Geb. Jag. Rgt. 14. From a letter from Walter Harzer (BArch, N756 Sign 182b, W. Mauer an Walter Harzer. 08.21.1968.) It becomes known that it was an oral order from Himmler, and not a specific order. This may be due to the fact that the officially no longer existed in fact, 21.SS-Division continued to be listed as a full-fledged compound with the name "Skanderbeg" in the SS-FHA documents. So in the document dated 10.01.45 "Bezeichnung der Feldtruppenteile der Waffen-SS" (NARA T-175 R-174) the names of both regiments of the 7.SS-Division do not have honorary names, and in one of the service documents of the division dated 06.02, there is such a mention.

Best regards
Dmitrii
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FransN
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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by FransN » 26 Jan 2021 12:00

Hi Dmitrii,
I am not sure that I understand you correctly.
My impression from the shown Wehmachtsbericht of 06.02.1945 is that the unit in the heading (Kampfgruppe SS-Geb.Jg.Rgt. "Skanderbeg") is the SS-Rgt. KGr. "Skanderbeg", i.e. the successor battle group (formed in Oct. 1944) of the 21. SS Division, and that this battle group apparently still existed on 06.02.1945. At that time the battle group was attached to the "Prinz Eugen" Division.
But I don't think the unit mentionned in the heading is referring to SS-Geb. Jg. Rgt. 14 of this division.
Are we on the same wave length?
Best regards, Frans

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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by Ivan Ž. » 26 Jan 2021 12:19

Hello, Frans (and Dmitrii)

From National Archives, RG 242, T311, r. 184, 001279 and 001282
T311 r-184 001279.jpg
T311 r-184 001282.jpg

Cheers,
Ivan
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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by Ivan Ž. » 26 Jan 2021 14:40

See also T311, r. 191; I can't read the frame numbers, but the journal page numbers are 702, 703 and 704 (the journal begins on r. 190, 000761).
T311 r-190 000761.jpg
T311 r-191 xxxxxx [p-702].jpg
T311 r-191 xxxxxx [p-703].jpg
T311 r-191 xxxxxx [p-704].jpg
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DFrolov1992
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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by DFrolov1992 » 27 Jan 2021 02:11

Ivan Ž. wrote:
26 Jan 2021 12:19
Hello, Frans (and Dmitrii)

From National Archives, RG 242, T311, r. 184, 001279 and 001282
T311 r-184 001279.jpg
T311 r-184 001282.jpg


Cheers,
Ivan
Hello Ivan!

Many thanks for clarifying this issue!

Best regards
Dmitrii

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Re: "Skanderbeg" cuffitle

Post by DFrolov1992 » 27 Jan 2021 02:34

FransN wrote:
26 Jan 2021 12:00
Hi Dmitrii,
I am not sure that I understand you correctly.
My impression from the shown Wehmachtsbericht of 06.02.1945 is that the unit in the heading (Kampfgruppe SS-Geb.Jg.Rgt. "Skanderbeg") is the SS-Rgt. KGr. "Skanderbeg", i.e. the successor battle group (formed in Oct. 1944) of the 21. SS Division, and that this battle group apparently still existed on 06.02.1945. At that time the battle group was attached to the "Prinz Eugen" Division.
But I don't think the unit mentionned in the heading is referring to SS-Geb. Jg. Rgt. 14 of this division.
Are we on the same wave length?
Best regards, Frans
Dear Frans!

As can be seen from the documents kindly provided by Ivan, the issue of renaming the regiments of the 7.SS-Division was already determined in mid-December 1944. Accordingly, based on the name of the unit "SS-Geb.Jäg. Rgt" Skanderbeg ", the document above refers directly to the regiment as part of division (otherwise the title would logically include the name "Rgt. KGr") What is your opinion? Couldn't there be 2 combat units with the same name in the division at the same time?

Best regards
Dmitrii

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