Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
Nautilus
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Nautilus » 13 Sep 2013 22:17

It may be the last vestige of the Reich which still stands in Munich, beside Haus der Kunst - the remains of the Ehrentempel in Königsplatz are practically invisible (filled with earth and overgrown with young trees and grass) and the nearby Führerbau and Verwaltungsbau have only the outer shell still in original shape :)

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Geli
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geli » 08 Oct 2013 11:51

Geoff Walden wrote:I think we are coming to the same conclusion ... Geli did not reportedly shoot herself in the guest room near Hitler's room, nor in the living room, but in the far corner room overlooking Prinzregentenplatz ... the room where the Polizei have their exercise equipment today.
I agree with you.

"Geli"

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 25 Feb 2021 03:20

Geoff Walden wrote:
06 Jul 2013 15:42
I had the good fortune to visit Hitler's former apartment on a special arranged tour yesterday (I'm sorry, but please don't ask me for details of this tour ... it's not available to the public). Here are two plans that show the configuration in 1935 (given to me by our Polizei guide, the same plan that "Geli" mentioned earlier), and today. I cleaned up the original plan, removing some extraneous labeling and crease marks.

AHapt1935labeled.jpg

1935: 1. Schlafzimmer (Hitler's bedroom), 2. Bad (bath shared by Hitler's bedroom and the guest room, and another small bath at the opposite end of the apartment), 3. Fremdenzimmer (guest room), 4. Speisezimmer (dining room), 5. Hall, 6. Wohnzimmer (living room, with the bow windows overlooking Prinzregentenplatz), 7. Hitler's desk and work area, 8. Bibliothek (library), 9. Zimmer (rooms), 10. Vorplatz (forecourts), 11. Küche (Kitchen), 12. Garderobe (cloak room), 13. Mädch. [Mädchen] Diene (female servant's room).

AHapt1935_2013labeled1.jpg

2013: Many changes have taken place. Specifically, the bath that was shared by Hitler and the guest room is now just a closet room; the dining room and the large living room have been subdivided with added walls and doorways (marked in red); the wall between the living room and the adjacent room (what I call the trophy room, as the book shelves are full of trophies today) has been extended from what it shows on the 1935 plan, so that this is more of a separate room today (although our Polizei guide told us that this doorway and the wood framing around it were original remains from the 1930s, and the walls do look the same in period photos, so I think the 1935 plan is misleading here); the former cloak room with toilets and the servants quarters are now all one large room, which is the kitchen and break room today; the former kitchen is now a storage room; the former servants staircase is now completely gone and the toilet / bath / shower room is there now (this is directly opposite today's fitness room). I don't know if the little bath at this end of the hall is still there (we did not open any closed doors).

The 1935 plan shows a doorway into the hall from the room adjacent to the living room (today's trophy room), but there is no doorway there today (and not on other period plans either). The 1935 plan shows the doorway from Hitler's bedroom into the bathroom at the end near the window, but the doorway now is at the opposite end of the room, near the main entry doorway. There is no doorway today from the guest room into the closet that used to be the bathroom. There is now a double doorway between Hitler's former bedroom and the former dining room, which does not show on the 1935 plan.

The 1935 plan shows a Kamin (fireplace) in the main hall, but this must not have been a built-in fireplace. At any rate, there is no trace of one there today. However, the original historic fireplace is on the other side of the wall from there, in an office part of the subdivided former living room. When Neville Chamberlain had a private conference with Hitler during the Munich Accords meetings, they met around a table in front of this fireplace.

The 1935 plan is, I believe, misleading in another area. It shows no wall - just the "stubs" of walls - separating the living room into two parts. However, the sketch maps earlier in this thread show walls extending from either side into the room, but not meeting in the middle in a doorway, and indeed, you can see today where the space between these short walls was filled up to make one solid wall, so the 1935 plan is inaccurate here.

The wood parquet floors certainly look original, and they squeak like they are that old too. The lift (elevator) still works, but we didn't use it.

I was not able to solve the mystery of which room Geli Raubal reportedly shot herself. The room configurations have changed, with both walls and doorways added and removed. The police physician Dr. Müller reported that "Die Leiche lag in dem Zimmer, das nür einen Eingang und Fenster auf den Prinzregentenplatz hat" - "The body lay in the room, that has only one entry and window to the Prinzregentenplatz." This statement is sufficiently vague that it apparently described at least two rooms in the apartment - the current fitness room, and the office next to the current trophy room (and possibly other rooms). The current fitness room is a large room at the opposite end of the apartment from Hitler's room, with an adjacent bath and access to the servants' stairwell (in the 1930s configuration). There has been speculation that this room was actually Geli's bedroom, not the guest room that shared a bath with Hitler's room. I showed the doctor's statement to our Polizei guide, and he said that was wrong - Geli's room was the guest room that shared a bath with Hitler's room, and that was where she shot herself. Certainly, this room is on the opposite side from Prinzregentenplatz, so this does not square with Dr. Müller's report made at the time.

However, Georg Winter, husband of housekeeper Anni Winter, said Geli's room had a double door (this and the Doctor's statement are from Anna Maria Sigmund's book Des Führers bester Freund, Munich, 2003). It's probably not safe to judge from the current doors, because they may not all be the original configuration, but the guest room next to Hitler's room has only a single door today. However, the three rooms at the opposite end, that overlook Prinzregenteplatz, all have double doors. I believe there is still good reason to think that the far room in the northwest corner (today's fitness room), looking out onto Prinzregentenplatz, was actually Geli's bedroom. As has been stated before, Geli reportedly had a lot of antique furniture in her room, and this end room is considerably larger than the guest room. But I can't make a definite statement on which was her room.

I reread this thread, and found where Antikoerper had posted a passage from Sigmund's book, saying that Geli had a corner room (Eckzimmer) ... it seems to me, that only the room at the far end from Hitler's - the current fitness room - could properly be called a corner room. So we're back to that room ... (Oberhessin posted this also, in another thread - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=186627 )

See also this thread - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=187706 . I think we are coming to the same conclusion ... Geli did not reportedly shoot herself in the guest room near Hitler's room, nor in the living room, but in the far corner room overlooking Prinzregentenplatz ... the room where the Polizei have their exercise equipment today.
Greetings all after a spell,

I have some considerable new information on this, and particularly replying to Geoff Walden, I was also wondering if posters Johnnyrocket and "Geli" are still around? If so, please check in. ;-) Of course any that were in thread may be interested. Its been a while, but research in-depth takes years off-and-on putting little pieces together.

This site has many of the not-seen pictures taken by Lee Miller. Enough when matched to the plans can allow deciphering of the 1945 set up, which clearly had changed little since 1935 construction, despite all the use. Especially when you add text descriptions from the very interesting and recent book "Hitler At Home" by Despina Stratigakos.

https://www.leemiller.co.uk/

I have unraveled the basic look of the apartment where most things could be placed and wanted to share for the historical record. Also able to largely confirm the last conclusion above, that Geli's room was on the Prinzregentenplatz side--- but of the two single window rooms, I lean slightly more in favor of the room next to the 1935 library. More to follow, just wanted to reactivate thread to share discoveries,


- Palaisfan

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 25 Feb 2021 03:29

Before getting into reconstruction of the arrangement, do any here know what this long furniture with four vaguely plus sign shapes under the large painting is? I have greatly over-exposed and adjusted it to try to bring out detail. Whatever this is, its Troost-designed apparently, and I have discovered there is also apparently one just like it in the apartment's big new Dining Room [on its far eastern end or southeastern wall]. So that's a clue of what type this room is as well.

The site you find this one, calls it a "Living Room" in Danish. Significantly, its a room containing the Geli Raubal bust. (See on far left). Since it has two windows in all likelihood, this is the large room of the three facing on the Prinzregentplatz side adjoining the 1935 library.

Source:
https://www.din-bog.dk/Tyskland/Muenche ... /index.htm

Note: I will refer to things as 1935 or or 1945 to distinguish from any attempts to discern the earlier furnishings if discussion picks up again.

Portion of the full view visible on the Tyskland site.
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Duane Becker
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Duane Becker » 25 Feb 2021 03:58

I didn't read through every post on this thread, but I did see that the book "Hitler At Home" has been mentioned.
I might add that I found this book a great edition well written and has a few recent photos of the Prinzregentenplatz 16 as well as some building spec prints and a great deal of information on the building past and present. The book Hitler At Home was written buy Stratigakos and published in 2015.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geoff Walden » 25 Feb 2021 17:48

I visited the apartment again in 2019. I had all the pertinent photos from the Lee Miller Archives and the Tyskland site with me. I spent some time looking for evidence of double doors, single doors, etc. I am still pretty much convinced that the far room in the corner that looked over Prinzregentenplatz (the current exercise room) was Geli's room. If the view on the Tyskland site was indeed Geli's room, I feel sure that room was indeed the corner room.
Now, I am not 100 percent sure ... Geli's room could possibly have been the room next door, beside the library room - the room with double windows that jut out in front. But this is not a corner room, and Geli's room was called an Eckzimmer in one of the period references.
I am sure that the small room near Hitler's bedroom (which was also small) - the room identified by the Polizei today as Geli's room - was not Geli's room.
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 26 Feb 2021 02:40

Geoff Walden wrote:
25 Feb 2021 17:48
I visited the apartment again in 2019. I had all the pertinent photos from the Lee Miller Archives and the Tyskland site with me. I spent some time looking for evidence of double doors, single doors, etc. I am still pretty much convinced that the far room in the corner that looked over Prinzregentenplatz (the current exercise room) was Geli's room. If the view on the Tyskland site was indeed Geli's room, I feel sure that room was indeed the corner room.
Now, I am not 100 percent sure ... Geli's room could possibly have been the room next door, beside the library room - the room with double windows that jut out in front. But this is not a corner room, and Geli's room was called an Eckzimmer in one of the period references.
I am sure that the small room near Hitler's bedroom (which was also small) - the room identified by the Polizei today as Geli's room - was not Geli's room.
Hello Geoff,

That's good news that you got to visit the apartment while having all the relevant photos handy. I agree that the room shown on the Tyskland site is probably Geli's. What a little hesitant about is which single window room to identify it with. My reasoning is this and it has nagged since reading it in Despina Stratigako's superbly researched book is when you take these quotes together (italics are mine):
"This whole section of the apartment was now given over to Hitler, and the western wing, which one entered if one turned left from the foyer, became the service area. The last two rooms in this wing facing the square were made into an apartment for the Winters, consisting of a bedroom, living room, and bathroom."
The remark and also Stratigako's overall context makes clear is talking about the two west-most rooms "as made for the Winters" in 1935 and the next quote addresses the one by the library.
Elsewhere we read: "When Raubal died, according to Winter and other witnesses, Hitler closed off her room and preserved it unchanged as a sort of shrine. 9 If this is true, the one room in the apartment conspicuously not renovated in 1935— the room beside the library— can be assumed to have been hers (fig. 15)."
So one room not renovated in 1935. Of course Stratigakos may be mistaken which room was "the one". That's why hoping to identify by photo and window location for sure which is which. Since reading that book its a puzzle kept in mind to see if picture evidence might not yet help.

The problem is what part of the apartment is included when they are counting to nine -- it almost seems like it is leaving out the two most western ones pre 1935, the ones facing Prinzregentplatz.[Because of the dividing wall in the hallway--which would make the one by the library a `corner'?] But more important, notice the "one NOT renovated." Its possible to prove the two-window one was renovated, so that leaves the two singles. It seems the one for the Winters would stay more or less unchanged.

Anyway, my reason for bringing this up is it can now be said Geli's room is probably one of these two. You said you have the Lee Miller photos---do you have a clearer one of this one on the left that is part of the group? Its one the preview would not work from, so had to zoom a thumbnail to even have some chance at figuring out the furniture. Another way that can help is if can identify anything as definitely mentioned in Geli's room.

But even allowing for its poor quality, the one on the left---does it not seem the window is set closer to the wall, less "center" and which would make it the extreme westernmost room? The Tsykland one the window looks more central. Another hint is angles of image often are determined from the doorway, and how photographed. But that is not as reliable. Greatly appreciate any thoughts.

Geli-Room-candidates.jpg
Here is a crop of a map plan I will be posting to better illustrate the reasoning.
crop-of-northern-face-PrinzRegent.jpg
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Hans1906
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Hans1906 » 26 Feb 2021 15:23

There is a german 45-minute documentary on Munich, in which a german police officer leads reporters through the former apartment on Prinzregentenplatz.
The apartment now houses a police station.

If I remember correctly, the film was part of a "Spiegel TV" series about "Brown Munich" before 1945.
The scene about the former apartment was about 10 minutes short, I don't have the link to the video.


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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 26 Feb 2021 16:09

Yes, I have seen it. Thanks. Some freeze frames at the time revealed some important details, especially just a sense of scale. Geoff Walden's diagram and post in 2013 replying to perfectly captures its look in modern times. But includes interior shots of the Living Room-Study side. You will want to check it out.

Thanks,
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 26 Feb 2021 16:17

Geoff,

One other thing would like to ask. On this attached picture do you know where it is? Its gone back and forth, but the book "Hitler's Headquarters" by Blaine Taylor on page 18 says that although for many years "misidentified with FHQ Berghof" its in fact at Prinzregentenplatz apartment. It does look like it could be in a wedge shaped room, which would fit the Foyer-Den ["Halle"] for a pre-1935 apartment placement. But trust your opinion far more if you have come to a conclusion - especially given your mastery of the Berghof fittings. The folio on the desk is one of those Art books of the Haus of German art so seems post Jan 1933 -- or did the covers always look that way? It could matter too whether the picture on desk is Geli or Eva or just another.
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Hans1906 » 26 Feb 2021 16:37

In the documentation, it was seen that the Munich police used the former library for the display of various trophies, presumably trophies for sports prizes.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 26 Feb 2021 19:37

Hans1906,

That is correct. It showed that clearly. In fact, it helps indicate that the 1945 picture of Mrs.Winter (Lee Miller site has her as Ms.Gardner) is sitting at the desk by the window in the Library (future trophy room). The one with the King George VI cup. Those odd items in shelves at Lee Miller site are from that too likely.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 04 Mar 2021 03:19

Okay, its finished enough. There is no pretense of it having the quality of the "Johnnyrocket" posters of classic standing several years ago with all due homage to him. :thumbsup: Its just a quick picture reference to consolidate what have determined. I was concerned about the notice the board may shut down, so wanted to put the synthesis up so it is not lost since I won't be writing about it, fwiw. A more specific discussion about the Geli era arrangement is on the other thread of "which room die in".

Like said, its just a guide for discussion and particularly the rooms facing Prinzregentplatz are not definite. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
GWalden-July2013-PrinzRegentplan-own-thumbnails-scratch-poster.jpg
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by SteveFBS » 04 Mar 2021 03:58

palaisfan wrote:
04 Mar 2021 03:19
Okay, its finished enough. There is no pretense of it having the quality of the "Johnnyrocket" posters of classic standing several years ago with all due homage to him. :thumbsup: Its just a quick picture reference to consolidate what have determined. I was concerned about the notice the board may shut down, so wanted to put the synthesis up so it is not lost since I won't be writing about it, fwiw. A more specific discussion about the Geli era arrangement is on the other thread of "which room die in".

Like said, its just a guide for discussion and particularly the rooms facing Prinzregentplatz are not definite. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

GWalden-July2013-PrinzRegentplan-own-thumbnails-scratch-poster.jpg
Wait a minute.
This board is shutting down??

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 04 Mar 2021 04:06

SteveFBS,
No, no. No worries. It was just a risk at one time (basic operating costs related) Its been made good, as understand it.
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