Id. old gun

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
Sturm78
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by Sturm78 » 03 Mar 2021 21:46

Thanks Shultz

I found this image on Ebay. According to photo caption, a Rheinmetall weapon. Any idea ?

Sturm78
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karlik
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by karlik » 04 Mar 2021 05:31

Hi!
Very interesting!
Judging by the elevation angle of the gun could it be a prototype of 9 cm Kanonenhaubitze????
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ALVF
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by ALVF » 04 Mar 2021 08:22

Hello,

It is the 5 cm Flachbahnkanone L/40 M.1915 Rheinmetall.
Yours sincerely;
Guy François.

Clive Mortimore
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by Clive Mortimore » 04 Mar 2021 12:38

Hi Strum, Guy and Karlik

The 5 cm Flachbahnkanone L/40 M.1915 Rheinmetall, looks a lot of gun for a very small HE shell. What was its intended role?

The 9cm Kanonenhaubitze L/31 Rheinmetall is of similar caliber and barrel length of the later British 25pdr. I wonder had it be developed if it would as been as successful as the 25pdr?

Two very interesting guns.

Clive
Clive

karlik
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by karlik » 04 Mar 2021 19:09

ALVF wrote:
04 Mar 2021 08:22
It is the 5 cm Flachbahnkanone L/40 M.1915 Rheinmetall.
Thank you!
What does it mean Flachbahnkanone?
Best regards!

karlik
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by karlik » 04 Mar 2021 19:29

Clive Mortimore wrote:
04 Mar 2021 12:38
The 9cm Kanonenhaubitze L/31 Rheinmetall is of similar caliber and barrel length of the later British 25pdr. I wonder had it be developed if it would as been as successful as the 25pdr?
Hi!
According to the book "Kangzhan: Guide to Chinese Ground Forces 1937–45" german 8.8-cm L/31 field gun type Z.A. (buth Krupp, not Rheinmetall) made in the Taiyuan Arsenal as "Type 18".
Best regards!

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Grzesio
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by Grzesio » 05 Mar 2021 09:39

karlik wrote:
04 Mar 2021 19:09
What does it mean Flachbahnkanone?
Flat trajectory cannon.

karlik
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by karlik » 05 Mar 2021 16:56

Grzesio wrote:
05 Mar 2021 09:39
Flat trajectory cannon.
Hi!
Very strange, the cannon is called "Flat trajectory cannon", and the barrel is lifted up like a howitzer? 8O
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nuyt
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by nuyt » 05 Mar 2021 17:06

Clive Mortimore wrote:
04 Mar 2021 12:38

The 9cm Kanonenhaubitze L/31 Rheinmetall is of similar caliber and barrel length of the later British 25pdr. I wonder had it be developed if it would as been as successful as the 25pdr?
I have wondered for a long time if there was a relation between the two weapons. Brits will deny this before even thinking about it. In retrospect it does appear unthinkable, the 25pdr a german gun? But so is the fact that the US 105mm M1 was developed after the Watervliet Board decided that the Rheinmetall 105mm lFH 16 was the weapon of choice from WW1 and that the US Army should have similar weapons :) And it is not so unthinkable when you realize that the WW2 Soviet artillery park was developed from a large number of 1930s Rheinmetall and Bofors/Krupp models :).

Some food for thought:

In the 1920s the Weimar Republic - a democracy had relatively good relations with everywhere. Rheinmetall, acquired by Krupp in the 1920s, tried to export to a large number of countries. Maybe they at one time offered arms to the UK? Not so strange if you remember that the 15pdr had also been acquired from Ehrhardt = Rheinmetall ! But I can imagine records remain sealed...

Also there was a huge Vickers-Krupp business deal between the two wars. The Brits had fired millions of rounds of ammo patented by Krupp and war or peace they would have to pay one day. And so they did in a wide and a bit mysterious deal that, besides settling the patent issues, also may have involved exchanges in share in foreign subsidiaries throughout Europe. Some drawings may have been exchanged as well perhaps?

Of course the two weapons look very different, but the circular platform of the 25pdr also came with several post WW1 Krupp, Rheinmetall and Bofors models - it sure was a German invention. And local British requirements, years of design development as well as detail changes caused by the local manufacturing process, may have altered the design beyond recognition at first sight.

But like I said, just speculation from my side :D

ALVF
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by ALVF » 05 Mar 2021 18:29

Hello,

The 5-cm Flachbahn Kanone M 1915 Rheinmetall is a "Flugabwehrkanone".
-elevation: -5° to + 50°.
-V°: 650 m/s.
-range vertical: 4.020 m.
-range maximum: 8.000m.
In service from march 1916 to november 1918: only one Battery with 4 guns.
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.

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Grzesio
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by Grzesio » 05 Mar 2021 19:56

karlik wrote:
05 Mar 2021 16:56
Very strange, the cannon is called "Flat trajectory cannon", and the barrel is lifted up like a howitzer? 8O
"Flat trajectory" refers to high velocity rather than elevation angle in this case. ;)

Sturm78
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by Sturm78 » 05 Mar 2021 20:09

Gut wrote
The 5-cm Flachbahn Kanone M 1915 Rheinmetall is a "Flugabwehrkanone".
-elevation: -5° to + 50°.
-V°: 650 m/s.
-range vertical: 4.020 m.
-range maximum: 8.000m.
In service from march 1916 to november 1918: only one Battery with 4 guns.
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.
Thank you very much for your help, Guy... :wink:

In summary: an AA gun design that remains in prototype/trials stage....

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Sturm78

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Manuferey
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by Manuferey » 06 Mar 2021 09:45

The 5 cm caliber makes it a possible development of the 5 cm BAK gun that Rheinmetall built for the Erhardt BAK armored car of 1906: see
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/category ... rototypes/

" Gun
The vehicle was armed with one 5 cm Rheinmetall gun which fired shrapnel rounds weighing 2.4 kg at a velocity of 450 m/s. The round contained 40 g bursting charge, 128 hard cast lead bullets of 8 g, and 36 hard cast lead pieces of 9 g. A total of 100 shells could be carried, having a combined weight of 240 kg, which were stored in the back of the vehicle.
The maximum horizontal firing range was 7,800 m with an elevation of 43 degrees. The maximum elevation was 70 degrees which would result in a shooting distance of 3,800 m. The gun could depress 5 degrees and turn 60 degrees, 30 degrees to each side. The limited turning radius was one of the most criticized aspects by contemporary military officials, as it would limit the utility of the vehicle significantly. It would not only reduce the vehicle’s flexibility against air targets but also severely limit the vehicle’s capability to defend itself against close land targets."

Picture from the Österreichische Illustrierte Zeitung:
5cmBAK.jpg
Emmanuel
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nuyt
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by nuyt » 06 Mar 2021 12:51

The 5cm Flachbahn Kanone is quite remarkable. Dressed up like a field gun, with seats for the gunners in front of he shield, the shield itself as well as the relatively low angle. Even before WW1 AA guns were usually mounted on pedestals for much better angles.

This one looks more like an infantry or mountain gun. My guess is that it was not developed from the 5cm BAK above, but from the series of Rheinmetall 5cm light field guns, like the 1902 or 1903. The latter was aka Kolonial Geschuetz. Possibly they turned this one off battery built in 1915 (for a foreign client or for the German colonies perhaps?) to better use as AA guns?

Clive Mortimore
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Re: Id. old gun

Post by Clive Mortimore » 06 Mar 2021 21:04

nuyt wrote:
05 Mar 2021 17:06
Clive Mortimore wrote:
04 Mar 2021 12:38

The 9cm Kanonenhaubitze L/31 Rheinmetall is of similar caliber and barrel length of the later British 25pdr. I wonder had it be developed if it would as been as successful as the 25pdr?
I have wondered for a long time if there was a relation between the two weapons. Brits will deny this before even thinking about it. In retrospect it does appear unthinkable, the 25pdr a german gun? But so is the fact that the US 105mm M1 was developed after the Watervliet Board decided that the Rheinmetall 105mm lFH 16 was the weapon of choice from WW1 and that the US Army should have similar weapons :) And it is not so unthinkable when you realize that the WW2 Soviet artillery park was developed from a large number of 1930s Rheinmetall and Bofors/Krupp models :).

Some food for thought:

In the 1920s the Weimar Republic - a democracy had relatively good relations with everywhere. Rheinmetall, acquired by Krupp in the 1920s, tried to export to a large number of countries. Maybe they at one time offered arms to the UK? Not so strange if you remember that the 15pdr had also been acquired from Ehrhardt = Rheinmetall ! But I can imagine records remain sealed...

Also there was a huge Vickers-Krupp business deal between the two wars. The Brits had fired millions of rounds of ammo patented by Krupp and war or peace they would have to pay one day. And so they did in a wide and a bit mysterious deal that, besides settling the patent issues, also may have involved exchanges in share in foreign subsidiaries throughout Europe. Some drawings may have been exchanged as well perhaps?

Of course the two weapons look very different, but the circular platform of the 25pdr also came with several post WW1 Krupp, Rheinmetall and Bofors models - it sure was a German invention. And local British requirements, years of design development as well as detail changes caused by the local manufacturing process, may have altered the design beyond recognition at first sight.

But like I said, just speculation from my side :D
Hi Nuyt

I was thinking more on the lines of the concept.

A gun that could lob shells like a howitzer, using a heavier shell than that of a 75mm type gun.

A howitzer that could out range its 105mm contemporaries, downside being a lighter shell.

The physical size of the gun would mean a weapon the same size as the 75mm guns and 105mm howitzers in use, remaining suitable for the horse teams and gun tractors already in service.

All batteries in a battalion/regiment could be used in either the gun or howitzer role, which could be more useful than the traditional 2 gun and 1 howitzer set up.

Logistically production and supply is set up for one not multiple calibers of shell.

As for the British route to the 25pdr, my understanding, it comes from the MkI and II of the 18pdrs inabilities of firing in high elevation, something all armies faced during WW1. A way round this was to mount the gun on a box or split trails to improve elevation. With the British this resulted in the 18pdr Mk IV on carriage MkIV (box) and MkV (spilt). There was also a demand for a heavier shell so the skinflint British government would only give enough money as to reline the 18pdr barrels with the largest caliber that the gun could take without destroying itself when fired. This lead to the 25pdr shell fired form relined and renamed 18 pdr MkIV guns making the 25pdr MkI. It was only when the government woke up and saw what was going on in Germany that a newish gun was designed around the new 25pdr shell. I say newish gun as it had a lot of characteristics of a Vickers commercial 105mm Howitzer, modified for modern motorised artillery.
Clive

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