Why the Waffen-SS

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Aida1,

You post," Actually DR and LAH in the first place as they were not sent to upgrade at all in 1942." Well, I have just been checking internet histories of LAH and they are all agreed that LAH was sent to France to refit and upgrade to panzer-grenadier status.

Perhaps they are all wrong and you know better. You've got the divisional histories, so;

When did LAH get its first tank battalion?

When did it get its first armoured half track panzer-grenadier battalion?

When did it get it first Tiger tank company?

What was its manpower strength when it reached France?

What was its manpower strength when it left?

As for 2nd Waffen-SS Division, you have already said yourself that it was taken off an active battlefront to refit, firstly in Germany, and didn't return to an active battlefront for six months.

Likewise with 3rd Waffen-SS Division for four months.

And I think we are all agreed that 9th, 10th and 12th Divisions were all formed in France.

So, even without your feedback on 1st Waffen-SS Division, I think we can safely see that your proposition that ".....the presence of some waffen ss units for some time in France has nothing to do with their upgrade, expansion or creation" is complete nonsense!

Cheers,

Sis.

P.S. You post, "Having some units upgrade/refit/create in France was a cheap way of giving OB West mobile reserves. Has been explained before." YES - BY ME TO YOU!

[Aida1]

Hi Aida1,



P.S. You post, "Having some units upgrade/refit/create in France was a cheap way of giving OB West mobile reserves. Has been explained before." YES - BY ME TO YOU!

No i said that to you ilustrated by a lof of detailed quotes about the exchange of units between West and east. :roll:

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Aida1,

You post, "And there were many more waffen ss divisions......" Yup, most of which were poor.

I am concentrating only on the Reich-raised Waffen-SS motorized/panzer divisions, which are considered the best. If you cannot defend them, what chance have you got with the 39th Waffen-SS Freiwillige Division "Baron von Munchausen"?

Cheers,

Sid

[Aida1]

Hi Aida1,

You post," Actually DR and LAH in the first place as they were not sent to upgrade at all in 1942." Well, I have just been checking internet histories of LAH and they are all agreed that LAH was sent to France to refit and upgrade to panzer-grenadier status.

Perhaps they are all wrong and you know better. You've got the divisional histories, so;

When did LAH get its first tank battalion?

When did it get its first armoured half track panzer-grenadier battalion?

When did it get it first Tiger tank company?

What was its manpower strength when it reached France?

What was its manpower strength when it left?

As for 2nd Waffen-SS Division, you have already said yourself that it was taken off an active battlefront to refit, firstly in Germany, and didn't return to an active battlefront for six months.

Likewise with 3rd Waffen-SS Division for four months.

And I think we are all agreed that 9th, 10th and 12th Divisions were all formed in France.

So, even without your feedback on 1st Waffen-SS Division, I think we can safely see that your proposition that ".....the presence of some waffen ss units for some time in France has nothing to do with their upgrade, expansion or creation" is complete nonsense!

Cheers,

Sis.

The refit of DR was finished in august. I already stated that a long time ago. Its new units were already setting up in Germany before the remnants of the division arrived from the eastern front. The division was not sent to France with the intention to have it upgrade there as you know very well as the transfer order was quoted here in origninal.
LAH had done a short refit behind the front and its new units which had been setting up in Germany were sent to Russia. Has been explained here before.Actually i have copies of the war diary so i know what i am talking about. And why LAH was sent to France, you know very well.
There is never an inherent necessity to set a unit up in France. Doing it in France was no more than a way of having divisions mobile reserve of OB west while they were setting up. Not even a good idea as it interferes with training and you cannot compare it with having full strength full battle ready div in reserve.
9,10 , and 12 ss were meant to stay in France even after becoming battle ready.

[Aida1]

Hi Aida1,

You post, "And there were many more waffen ss divisions......" Yup, most of which were poor.

I am concentrating only on the Reich-raised Waffen-SS motorized/panzer divisions, which are considered the best. If you cannot defend them, what chance have you got with the 39th Waffen-SS Freiwillige Division "Baron von Munchausen"?

Cheers,

Sid

Says a lot about you that you call all the other divisons that silly way including some very good ones.
You are looking the fool here by implicitly pretending that, when Hitler perceived an allied invasion was near in july 1942, he should not have sent the divisons HE considered elite of which one was conveniently near in Germany, but instead two seriously depleted Heer divisons all the way from the eastern front which HE certainly did not consider his elite. Same thing about sending DR and LAH to France in 1944. It is Hitlers opinion about the Waffen SS which hIstorically counts, not yours.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Aida1,

Your memory must be fading to be claiming what I posted to you as your own!

Me to you in Post #3166: "Deployment to France was a useful mechanism for rebuilding shattered field formations, or building new ones, while simultaneously keeping them, or at least kampfgruppen of them, available for use in the unlikely event of a major Allied landing in 1942-43." This is just one of several examples.

And do you not remember writing this, as well, in Post #3317; "To anybody well informed about the waffen Ss it is not a secret what the senior waffen Ss divisions were doing in 1942 and why refit and transformation were specifically done in France." How does this fit in with, "Actually DR and LAH in the first place as they were not sent to upgrade at all in 1942"?

Anyway, you can sort some of the LAH issue out by using your Waffen-SS divisional histories to answer the following questions:

When did LAH get its first tank battalion?

When did it get its first armoured half track panzer-grenadier battalion?

When did it get it first Tiger tank company?

What was its manpower strength when it reached France?

What was its manpower strength when it left?

You post, "Says a lot about you that you call all the other divisons that silly way....." And it says even more about you that, yet again, you make up what I actually wrote. What I actually wrote was, "Yup, most of which were poor." So why do you repeatedly stoop to such deliberate dishonesty?

Cheers,

Sid

[Aida1]

War diary LAH
19.06.1941 Order Ia to div Upgrade and refit LSSAH . Arrival first units(newly setup units in Sennelager)in the area Stalino-Mariupol
Quiet day. Some enemy air activity

20.06.1941 Gr v Wietersheim LAH remains at disposal in the current area. Message from Hstuf Jürgensen( working staff Jürgensen, Stalino) concerning the already arrived newly set up units.
Nights and in the morning minor enemy air activity. Quiet day.

21.06.1941 Arrival of additional newly setup units'

'Gefechtsstärke 21/06/1942 : 156/882/5095
Gefechtsfstärke 11/07/1942 : 388/1542/11243

Verpflegungsstärke 21/06/1942 : 292/1464/7202
11/07/1942 : 514/2212/14352'

Consulting the war diary always beats having to look it all up on the internet. I always check sources when i write Nothing is better than reading the primary sources Anyway, LAH received its new units in Russia before it was suddenly moved west. One can see the sudden rise in strength which reflects what is written in the war diary.

[Aida1]

Hi Aida1,

Your memory must be fading to be claiming what I posted to you as your own!

Me to you in Post #3166: "Deployment to France was a useful mechanism for rebuilding shattered field formations, or building new ones, while simultaneously keeping them, or at least kampfgruppen of them, available for use in the unlikely event of a major Allied landing in 1942-43." This is just one of several examples.

And do you not remember writing this, as well, in Post #3317; "To anybody well informed about the waffen Ss it is not a secret what the senior waffen Ss divisions were doing in 1942 and why refit and transformation were specifically done in France." How does this fit in with, "Actually DR and LAH in the first place as they were not sent to upgrade at all in 1942"?



Cheers,

Sid

Clearly was being too nice to you at some point Not anymore.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Aida1,

That doesn't answer a single one of my questions, unless the 11 July strengths are on arrival in France:

When did LAH get its first tank battalion?

When did it get its first armoured half track panzer-grenadier battalion?

When did it get it first Tiger tank company?

What was its manpower strength when it reached France?

What was its manpower strength when it left?

I have a total strength of 20,844 for December. What do your sources say?

Anyway, it is apparent even from the figures you give that 1st Waffen-SS Division didn't have time to get fully worked up before it was first sent to France. It looks as though it was a work in progress when it arrived, not the fully formed division you were suggesting.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Aida1]

Division Das Reich III Otto Weidinger Munin Verlag 1973 pp 437-441:
' Refitting of SS Division Das Reich and its transformation to SS Panzergrenadier division
Refitting and transformation of Regiment Der Führer
In the middle of march the refitting of the regiment Der führer starts on the Fallingbostel training ground simultaneously with the transformation to Panzergrenadier regiment under remarkably positive conditions. It is allowed the regiment to recall directly to the regiment all recovered wounded and sick officers from the Ausbildungs und Ersatz bataillon Stralsund insofar as they are rready for duty within the next 3 months. So, in a short time arrive 400 officers, NCO's and men who all have experienced at least part of the fighting with the regiment and therefore build the fundament for the refitting of companies and batallions.
In fast succession transports with new recruits arrive- in total 3000 men-, on average around 18-20 years old. What is lacking in officers is assigned to the regiment, partly with ,mostly without front experience.
From the Junkerschule Braunschweig and Tölz men return as Standartenoberjunker which had been commanded to the officer training before the start of the campaign in Russia.
According to the proven practice, NCO training companies were immediately setup , whereby in due course the defiencies in the NCO corps could be closed.
The equipment with weapons and equipment is done sluggishly. The weapons training does not suffer much under this. A special bottleneck is the delivery of vehicles. Save the few old vehicles brought from the east, almost nothing is available. The trainng of the drivers necessarily suffers from this deficiency and the training as motorised troop is fully paralysed.
The command of the batallions take over: I/DF Hstuf Opificius; II/DF Hstuf Stadler III / DF Hstuf Horn. Hstuf Holzer remains Regimental adjudant ,throughout old experienced officers of the regiment. All companies of the regiment are occupied with good officers and platoon comanders- unfortunately a third without front experience.
From the beginning of april, the rest of the division arrivés on the training ground, while the battle group SS Reich remains deployed in the Wolga bend and only arrivés with first parts on 10 june 1942.
In the second half of june 1942 all men on leave of the battle group are back and thereby the refitting and transformation to a Panzergrenadier division can start under the same favourable conditions as until then for regiment Der Führer.
The new division commander SS Gruppenführer Georg Keppler, came himself as former commander of the I/SS Deutschland and subsequently as commander of the SS regt Der Führer , from the division and is a guarantee that the division wil continue its tradition in the spirit of its first commander SS Gruppenführer Hausser.
The regiment Deutschland is commanded by Ostubaf Harmel, who had proven himself as commander of the battlegroup; the regiment Der Führer by Ostubaf Kumm who has proven himself in the defensive fighting around Rshew.
…..
Transformation

The transformation to Panzergrenadier division requires the additional setting up of a Panzer Abteilung with 3 tank companies(Panzer II and IV), which is also setup starting the 20.04.1942 on the training ground in Fallingbostel by Stubaf v Reitzenstein and mainly consists of men of the regiment Deutschland. Furthermore, an infantry batallion of the division -the III/DF- is transformed into a APC batallion ,which is mainly meant for joint deployment with the Panzer Abteilung.

The 2. SS Aufklärungs Abt under Hstuf Kämpfe gets the same equipment which gives the Aufklärungs Abt an even higher combat capability.
As a special feature, the divisions gets a 'fast inf regiment' , which consists of a regt staff and two fast infbatallions , which are equipped with Porshe Schwimmwagen instead of side-cars. The regiment is setup on 22.04.1942 at Falingbostel and integrated in the division.
…..
The 1.6.1942 the refitting and transformation to Schwimmwagen companies takes place.
The 01.08.1942 is fixed as deadline for the full combat readiness of the division.
;;;;;
Because the possibility of an allied landing is continually expected, in the beginning of july, the regt Der Führer -ahead of the division, is transferred to Northwestern France in the area of Le Mans and subordinated to Generaloberst Dollmann as intervention reserve of OB West..
At the last minute, the regt gets its full equipment with vehicles. The I and II/DF get MTW again ( Opel 3 ton blitz), the III./DF is now gep. and receives 3 ton APC.The regimental units are also very well equipped. The vehicles are allocated and delivered exactly in accordance with army rules.
The regiment is at first billeted in the area Mayenne to the northwest of Le Mans. The day of the arrival in the new lodging area, an even much more intensive training starts as on the training ground. The regiment especially thanks the Chief of the general staff OB West, General Zeitzler for a rich allocation of fuel and amunnition because the new transfer of a full and so proven regiment was a welcome reinforcement of the mobile reserve of OB West in case of an allied landing.
……
At the end of july 1942 the whole division is transferred from the Fallingbostel training ground to Northwestern France.The division staff is in Le Mans.
…..
The whole training of the division, reaches a level in France which without limitations can be compared with the superb prewar level. Added to this comes as an important factor the rich front experiences of men and NCO's.
So, the division is again full combat ready at the end of august.'

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Aida1,

Thanks. Very useful.

And LAH, asper my last post?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Aida1]

Hi Aida1,

That doesn't answer a single one of my questions, unless the 11 July strengths are on arrival in France:

When did LAH get its first tank battalion?

When did it get its first armoured half track panzer-grenadier battalion?

When did it get it first Tiger tank company?

What was its manpower strength when it reached France?

What was its manpower strength when it left?

I have a total strength of 20,844 for December. What do your sources say?

Anyway, it is apparent even from the figures you give that 1st Waffen-SS Division didn't have time to get fully worked up before it was first sent to France. It looks as though it was a work in progress when it arrived, not the fully formed division you were suggesting.

Cheers,

Sid.

Strength at departure was given in detail in the war diary. :roll: I think you are far out on a limb when you are pretending the div was not fully battle ready when it left. Without Hitlers fear of an allied landing, it would have been in combat in Russia very quickly with the added on units integrated .More details will be visible when i translate a few pages of the div history.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Aida1,

Thanks.

Sid

[Aida1]

Leibstandarte II Lehmann Munin Verlag 1980 p 284
' On 24 01 1942 the chief of the general staff , General Oberst Halder notes in his diary the planned refits, new setting ups for 1942: 9 pz div of 3 Abteilungen , 5 inf div (mot)including the units Grossdeutschland and LSSAH. All should be made 100% fit.'

p 298-299
According to the planning by general Buhle communicated on 24.01 ,whereby regt Grossdeutschland and LAH would be strengthened to mot div with a Panzer Abteilung each, the Standarte started comprehensive preparations and new setups in Sennelager and Lichterfelde. Head of the setting up staff in Sennelager was Brigadeführer Jürgen Wagner.
Set up where:
1. Infantry
One staff company each for the two new to be set up regiments from Ausbildungs and Ersatz Btln LAH

VI. btln with 3 infantry , 1 MG and i heavy company under stubaf Weidenhaupt from Ausbildungs and Ersatz Batln LAH

2. Panzer troop
Pz Abt LAH with staff and 3 medium Pz comp from Sturmgeschütz battr , 1 Pz workshop platoon from Sturmgeschütz battr and one pz company of the SS Führung Hauptamtes in Wildflecken. Supervision Stubaf Möhnke then Stubaf Schönberger

3. Recce troop
Pz Späh comp from old Pz Späh comp and replacements from Krad Schützen Batln Ellwangen by Ostuf Böttcher

Light Kradschützen comp from Krad Schützen Ersatz Batln Ellwangen by Hstuf Knittel.
Special training of the replacements for the heavy company of the Aufkllärungsabteilung
Driver training company for the 1. and 2. Kradschützen company which should be equipped with VW Schwimmwagen.
Special training of the replacements for the heavy company of the Recce for Pz Jäger, heavy inf gun, and Flak under Ustuf Wegener and Reuss.

4. Antitank troop
Staff Panzerjäger Abt with staff comp from staff heavy batln by Hstuf Hanreich
3 Panzerjäger comp with 7,62 cm PAK on Panzer II undercarriage. These guns had to be left in Stalino . The Abt was refitted in august in Normandy with the 7,5 cm PAK on Pz 38 undercarriage

5.Sturmgeschütz Abt
From the former Sturmgeschütz battery , 2 more batteries were setup in Sennelager starting the 1.3.1942

6 Artillery
A art Abt staff under Hstuf Schröder
1 lfh battery under Ostuf Gohlke
1 heavy battery under Hstuf Heberer later Ostuf Quaiser
a further heavy fh battery under Ostuf Lehnert
1 rocket launcher battery(15 cm) under Ostuf Bartels

7 Flak artillery

1 heavy Flak bttr (8,8 cm) under Hstuf Ullerich
2 light Flak platoons (2 cm) for 1 inf regt respectively recce

8 Engineers

1 Pz Pi platoon under Ustuf Bauch
1 Brüko K (mot)

9 Maintenance troops

the 2. maintenance comp(mot) which was set up in Lichterfelde at the A und Ersatz bln on 15.1.1942 in transferred to Sennelager . She then makes available the core for the Pz maintenance platoons for the Pz Abt and the Pz jg Abt LAH

10 Supply troops
From the former supply trains of the div supply commander a further big truck train for fuel (50 cbm) and from the light trains of the artillery and the Flak Abt 2 big truck trains are set up.

11 Medical troops
A further Kranken Kraftwagen Zg is set up under supervision of Ostuf dr Schultz

p 405 24.11.1942 Reorganisation and renaming of III/2. Pz gren regt in a armoured inf btn with staff III gep / 2. Inf Regt
11-13. (gep)comp , 14.(gep) heavy company

P 410 15.10.1942 Sennelager Setting up of a heavy tank company (Tiger) . At the integration in the Pz rgt it gets the denomination 13.heavy comp Pz rgt LSSAH '

[Tom from Cornwall]

A little more from 26 Panzer Division's war diary about the level of alert in Northern Europe in the autumn of 1942:

8 November 1942
18,40 Uhr trifft bei der Division der Befehl des Ob.West ein, daẞ ab 18,00 Uhr für die gesamte Küstenfront seines Befehlsbereichs für die Nacht vom 8./9/.11.42 Alarmstufe I befohlen wird.

At 1840 hrs, an order arrives at Division from Ob. West that from 1800 hrs the entire coastal front of its command area was to assume Alarm State 1 for the night of 8-9 November 1942.

Early that morning, the division had also been informed of the Torch landings in North Africa. Another sign perhaps that the Germans did not have a good appreciation of the amphibious lift limitations that the Allies were working under at this time.

Regards

Tom