Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

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Mannheim
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Mannheim » 04 Mar 2021 10:19

Great work, palaisfan! It really clarifies the layout.
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Br. James » 05 Mar 2021 16:36

I agree completely: "Great work, palaisfan! It really clarifies the layout!"

Many thanks for your fine effort,

Br. James

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 08 Mar 2021 00:54

Thanks all,

Still unpacking some of the evidence. On the Raubal period of 1929-1931 placed more specific aspects of that time and a rough plan attempt here on this thread. Something interesting found could add sometime to the 1935-1945 phase plan previous is that Traudl Junge described the garderobe or dressing room in 1943 as furnished with bright lights and tall mirrors. If that held also pre-1935 it might even be where those various Geli evening portraits are taken.

viewtopic.php?f=77&t=187706

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 13 Mar 2021 05:33

Something to add here. Double-checking Traudl Junge's account she gives a description of a visit to the apartment on May 1, 1943. It appears in English in both "Voices from the Bunker" and "Until the Final Hour." Its the same account from her memoirs, but the translation differs slightly. Its also slightly abbreviated - a sentence or two -- in "Voices". The italics should not be read as part of it--but as an alternative of the same line as appeared in "Voices" vs "Final Hour."

Here's the quote:
{Quoted from "Till the Final Hour", but in brackets italics I include variants of translation for same passage that appeared in "Voices from the Bunker".}
"I was particularly surprised to find that Hitler occupied only one floor. The ground floor contained a porter's lodge and offices for the police and guards, and there were some guestrooms available to Hilter on the First floor. His private rooms were on the Second floor, which he shared with his housekeepers Herr and Frau Winter. All the other floors of the building were occupied by private tenants. Hitler's apartment was no different from the home of any respectable, well-to-do citizen. There were basket chairs [wicker furniture] in the roomy entrance hall, and the windows had curtains with a brightly coloured flower pattern. A cloakroom was tastefully furnished with big mirrors and wall-lights. You trod on soft carpets everywhere.

The broad corridor ended on the left {i.e., as you step into it} in a door leading to the Winter's rooms. This was where the housekeeper had her kitchen, bathroom, living room and bedroom. The living room was also used by Hitler's employees [ministers] as a sitting room when the government was staying in Munich. Hitler's big study [office] and the library were directly opposite the front door. Originally they had probably been two rooms, now turned into one very large one by the removal of a wall. Hitler had a great liking for spacious rooms, and I was sometimes surprised that he could bear to be in his little cage-like bunker, with its low ceiling and tiny windows.

The room next to the libary was always kept locked. [`Next to the library was a bedroom which was kept locked: it was there that his beloved neice Geli Raubal had killed herself.'] This was where Hitler's niece, of whom he was very fond, had apparently killed herself for his sake...and no one had been allowed to use Geli's room since her death.

Eva Braun had a room in Hitler's apartment too, but she seldom used it, and never while Hitler was in Munich. There was another guestroom in the right-hand part of the apartment, which I used as an office when I had some typing to do, [and between the two was the bedroom where Hitler slept, which I'd never been into.] and Hitler's bedroom must have been somewhere as well. I never entered it."
Comment: Now that the plan of the flat is known, it can be seen that Traudl's description matches almost exactly, and thus has the strong ring of reliability. Her statement "kitchen, bathroom, living room and bedroom" aligns very well with the four westmost rooms behind the partition found at the switchboard as basically being the house staff. Her description in turn makes very clear that Geli's preserved room is the one by the library. This is the same thing Despina Stratigako's book says for a different reason: the only room not refurbished in 1935. Notice though that only "Voices" calls it a bedroom. Maybe should put this on the `what room did Geli die in' thread - but the 1943 description belonged here. As for Traudl it sounds like she did her typing in the guest room on the inner courtyard side; the little triangular room near Hitler's bedroom.

Note: possibly important-- Traudl does not call Geli's a bedroom in the longer translation, but only "Voices." Only the original German could determine what she said here. Note also that she refers to a Living Room on the housekeeper end--- there is such a room; it has Geli's bust. Her context makes it clear she is not talking about the main living room study/office.

For whatever its worth, this is independent verification of some of Traudl's descriptions in general too. The above seems significant.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geoff Walden » 14 Mar 2021 19:40

When I read Traudl Junge's books in 2002 I did not pay much attention to her descriptions of the Prinzregentenplatz apartment because I had not been in there and had no idea of ever being in there. When I did visit in 2013 and 2019, I did not recall any info in her books. But what Traudle Junge said about Geli's room seems to be definitive - it was the bedroom next to the library, where she had killed herself.

The 1935 plan that is in the files of the Munich Polizei office is clearly in error in labeling that room the library (Bibliothek). The library was the next room over, next to the Wohnzimmer (main room with Hitler's desk).

I believe none of these rooms can be completely reconciled with the information in the period reports and descriptions. Geli's room was supposed to have one entry with a double door. All the rooms at that end of the hall have "double" doors; that is, the doors are in two panels that open in the center. All of the rooms had just one entry door - none of them had more than one entry (except the dining room, which clearly was not a bedroom). So this period information really doesn't help to pin down Geli's room, not like Traudle Junge's definitive statement.

I can no longer edit my original posts on page 6, so I have redone the plans and post them here.
AHapt1935labeled.jpg
1935: 1. Schlafzimmer (Hitler's bedroom), 2. Bad (bath shared by Hitler's bedroom and the guest room, and another small bath at the opposite end of the apartment), 3. Fremdenzimmer (guest room, sometimes used by Eva Braun when Hitler was not there), 4. Speisezimmer (dining room), 5. Hall, 6. Wohnzimmer (living room, with the bow windows overlooking Prinzregentenplatz), 7. Hitler's desk and work area, 8. Bibliothek (library) - this was mislabeled - the library was actually the room next door, next to the Wohnzimmer with Hitler's desk), 9. Zimmer (rooms - these two rooms were the living room and bedroom of the housekeeper Anni Winter and her husband Georg), 10. Vorplatz (hallways), 11. Küche (kitchen), 12. Garderobe (cloak room), 13. Mädch. [Mädchen] Diene (female servant's room).
AHapt1935_2013labeled.jpg
2013: Many changes have taken place. Specifically, the bath that was shared by Hitler and the guest room is now just a closet room; the dining room and the large living room have been subdivided with added walls and doorways (marked in red); the wall between the living room and the adjacent room (what I call the trophy room, as the book shelves are full of trophies today) has been extended from what it shows on the 1935 plan, so that this is more of a separate room today (although our Polizei guide told us that this doorway and the wood framing around it were original remains from the 1930s, and the walls do look the same in period photos, so I think the 1935 plan is misleading here); the former cloak room with toilets and the servants quarters are now all one large room, which is the kitchen and break room today; the former kitchen is now a storage room; the former servants staircase is now completely gone and the toilet / bath / shower room is there now (this is directly opposite today's fitness room). I don't know if the little bath at this end of the hall is still there (we did not open any closed doors).

The 1935 plan shows a doorway into the hall from the room adjacent to the living room (today's trophy room), but there is no doorway there today (and not on other period plans either). The 1935 plan shows the doorway from Hitler's bedroom into the bathroom at the end near the window, but the doorway now is at the opposite end of the room, near the main entry doorway. There is no doorway today from the guest room into the closet that used to be the bathroom. There is now a double doorway between Hitler's former bedroom and the former dining room, which does not show on the 1935 plan.

The 1935 plan shows a Kamin (fireplace) in the main hall, but this must not have been a built-in fireplace. At any rate, there is no trace of one there today. However, the original historic fireplace is on the other side of the wall from there, in an office part of the subdivided former living room. When Neville Chamberlain had a private conference with Hitler during the Munich Accords meetings, they met around a table in front of this fireplace.

The 1935 plan is, I believe, misleading in another area. It shows no wall - just the "stubs" of walls - separating the living room into two parts. However, the sketch maps earlier in this thread show walls extending from either side into the room, but not meeting in the middle in a doorway, and indeed, you can see today where the space between these short walls was filled up to make one solid wall, so the 1935 plan is inaccurate here.
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 14 Mar 2021 20:52

Geoff,

Thanks for the incisive feedback.
Geoff Walden wrote:
14 Mar 2021 19:40
When I read Traudl Junge's books in 2002 I did not pay much attention to her descriptions of the Prinzregentenplatz apartment because I had not been in there and had no idea of ever being in there. When I did visit in 2013 and 2019, I did not recall any info in her books. But what Traudle Junge said about Geli's room seems to be definitive - it was the bedroom next to the library, where she had killed herself.
Same here-- much like other locations described without a plan whenever read remarks about the apartment, they made little sense. But with the plan we see her description is very good. The room beside and west of the libary-alcove is more surely stated, is Geli's "preserved room". There seems a strange ambiguity whether the death room was preserved, or simply her personal room preserved.(Usually assumed the same)
The 1935 plan that is in the files of the Munich Polizei office is clearly in error in labeling that room the library (Bibliothek). The library was the next room over, next to the Wohnzimmer (main room with Hitler's desk).
Part of the problem is the 1935 plan in the files seems to have not been directly rendered. My impromptu plan on page 7 was following the 1935 plans in Stratigakos book which do show the library labeled accurately. (They also show how that door was sealed up in the reconstruction when it is made into the 1935 library, but had been there onto the hallway before-hand.) I want to re-read what you just posted, and will comment soon on how some of it, not all, can be cleared up.
I believe none of these rooms can be completely reconciled with the information in the period reports and descriptions. Geli's room was supposed to have one entry with a double door. All the rooms at that end of the hall have "double" doors; that is, the doors are in two panels that open in the center. All of the rooms had just one entry door - none of them had more than one entry (except the dining room, which clearly was not a bedroom). So this period information really doesn't help to pin down Geli's room, not like Traudle Junge's definitive statement.
Agreed. A term came across in one of the accounts as a helpful way of distinguishing the usage of "double-door" is double-leaf doors ("panel" fits perfectly), vs a genuine double-door. Problem is both types are present and the intended meaning not always clear. In the pre-1935 look double-leaf doors lead into the west wing rooms. Post 1935 this seems still true, but double-doors (actual pairs of double-leafs -- a total of four panels) do exist in the eastern wing -- a good example from Hitler's bedroom into the Dining Room.

On the prior page you mentioned
I visited the apartment again in 2019. I had all the pertinent photos from the Lee Miller Archives and the Tyskland site with me.
Did you have a copy of the Lee Miller one on the left? (Room G possible match) Bigger than a thumbnail might reveal if its window is toward the right corner of the room rather than the left corner and confirm it is the west-most room.

Geli-Room-candidates-th.jpg

(E is the one we are appearing to agree is Geli's preserved room, and indicated by Traudl. `F' would be the living room used by ministers at times.)

crop-of-northern-face-PrinzRegentth.jpg

Thanks,
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Hans1906 » 15 Mar 2021 10:44

The scenes in the former appartment of Hitler in Munich/Prinzregentenplatz 16 were shown in the TV series "Böse Bauten", episode 2:
Böse Bauten 2 - Hitlers Architektur: Spurensuche in München und Nürnberg.

Link to the docu: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3sa437 (Running time 28+ minutes)

"Böse Bauten": All episodes in the ZDFmediathek: https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/boese-bauten

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 17 Mar 2021 06:29

Hans1906 wrote:
15 Mar 2021 10:44
The scenes in the former appartment of Hitler in Munich/Prinzregentenplatz 16 were shown in the TV series "Böse Bauten", episode 2:
Böse Bauten 2 - Hitlers Architektur: Spurensuche in München und Nürnberg.

Link to the docu: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3sa437 (Running time 28+ minutes)

"Böse Bauten": All episodes in the ZDFmediathek: https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/boese-bauten

Hans1906
:thumbsup:

Thank you much for that link Hans1906. A good video segment of the apartment today being walked through. Including a surprising view of the inner office area that is probably rarely visited, but is where the 1935 fireplace still stands (or a very correct replica of it---it matches the Troost elevations). It gives a good impression of the scale and size of the rooms, and goes well with this thread and picturing the plans and pictures earlier. The double-leaf doors leading into the fireplace room may be the original ones from the Dining Room which has now be divided into two as Walden pointed out. (Ironically, in so doing-- returning to its 1929-1934 division--it used to be two rooms before 1935 as well)

And a nice bonus of the other Munich structures--especially the inside views of the Munich conference Führerbau.

Thanks again, encourage all to visit the link

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Hans1906 » 18 Mar 2021 10:07

Good morning palaisfan,

thanks for your reply, the whole TV series "Böse Bauten" (E: "Evil Buildings" is highly recommended, definitely worth watching.
The series of these documentaries from the year 2018 is repeated very often on German TV on the channel ZDFinfo.
"The ZDF series "Böse Bauten" ("Evil Buildings") about uncomfortable, disturbing architectural monuments from the National Socialist era has been awarded the journalism prize of the "German Prize for Monument Protection" in 2018, the highest award in this field in the Federal Republic of Germany. Here, the award winner Kathrin Beck and editor Werner von Bergen."
Source: https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/boese-bauten
ZDFinfo (Docu channel) https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/zdfinfo-doku

Hans1906
* Thanks Ivan for your helpful note... :wink:
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 21 Mar 2021 23:33

Geoff Walden wrote:
14 Mar 2021 19:40
The 1935 plan shows a Kamin (fireplace) in the main hall, but this must not have been a built-in fireplace. At any rate, there is no trace of one there today.
Actually that appears to be a disguised radiator. In the Tyskland photo that fixture looks just like the one in the new Dining Room in the Lee Miller photos which Stratigakos text and plan describe as a concealed radiator. Look on the plan. They even look illustrated similarly. I think this is what we are seeing, and such is less fixed in place than a fireplace. What do you think?

Prinz-16-radiators-1935crp.jpg
Radiator-in-hall-match1.jpg

However, the original historic fireplace is on the other side of the wall from there, in an office part of the subdivided former living room. When Neville Chamberlain had a private conference with Hitler during the Munich Accords meetings, they met around a table in front of this fireplace.
True. You really see the modern look in Hans1906's great video link. What is more is that fireplace is in the same place as one in 1929-1934. It just was a newly built replacement. And Chamberlain also conversed in the sitting area by the Library archway where that famous photo you commonly see shows them. This sitting area and sofa with bookshelves in its back apparently pre-date the 1935 reconstruction. Which is typical of Hitler to keep and re-use some things.
The 1935 plan is, I believe, misleading in another area. It shows no wall - just the "stubs" of walls - separating the living room into two parts. However, the sketch maps earlier in this thread show walls extending from either side into the room, but not meeting in the middle in a doorway, and indeed, you can see today where the space between these short walls was filled up to make one solid wall, so the 1935 plan is inaccurate here.
Agree again. It just doesn't quite match the look of it compared to the Lee Miller photos or even the 1936 Hans Baur wedding. (Which group pose takes place in the east bay, the Dining Room doors are behind them.)

In fact, one of the interesting things that is helpful for 1929-1932 events is it appears the 1935 Troost reconstruction in most cases kept the general arrangement as it was before, just heavily refurbished and revamped the rooms replacing pieces; and a few cases like the Dining Room, made it larger by eliminating a wall. Maybe the library for example, was always there where 1935-present), but used to have a wall. The same pattern of conservation seen in Wachenfeld-Berghof and old Chancellery reconstructions.
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 22 Mar 2021 00:15

Hans1906 wrote:
18 Mar 2021 10:07
Good morning palaisfan,

thanks for your reply, the whole TV series "Böse Bauten" (E: "Evil Buildings" is highly recommended, definitely worth watching.
The series of these documentaries from the year 2018 is repeated very often on German TV on the channel ZDFinfo.
"The ZDF series "Böse Bauten" ("Evil Buildings") about uncomfortable, disturbing architectural monuments from the National Socialist era has been awarded the journalism prize of the "German Prize for Monument Protection" in 2018, the highest award in this field in the Federal Republic of Germany. Here, the award winner Kathrin Beck and editor Werner von Bergen."
Source: https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/boese-bauten
ZDFinfo (Docu channel) https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/zdfinfo-doku

Hans1906
* Thanks Ivan for your helpful note... :wink:
Yes, they are very good. One or two said not available to watch, but most are. The Weimar one was interesting. Thanks again. That video inside the apartment helped allow recognition of something had missed. The unknown thumbnail from the Miller collection on the left (asked about in #111) is in fact a view of the wedge Foyer Hall like on available photo on the right but showing the window. When saw the Foyer Hall window in the video and similar angle of corner, it clicked. The bookcase simply has an open panel in the fuzzy one. Comparing the photos all items match even though one is blurry because so tiny. A useful discovery.

Unknown-thumb-is-Foyer-Hall.jpg
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 10 Jun 2021 20:58

Hello all,

Believe have a discovery. I would like second opinions?

Is this an American flag on the left of the pair in the stand in the room with the Geli bust on Tsykland site?

https://www.din-bog.dk/Tyskland/Muenche ... /index.htm

(Go to link above to view it bigger)
Flag-US-Left-maybe-gelibust-room.jpg

TIA,

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by CraigM » 11 Jun 2021 15:07

palaisfan wrote:
10 Jun 2021 20:58
Is this an American flag on the left of the pair in the stand in the room with the Geli bust on Tsykland site?
It looks like the flag of the United Kingdom (the Union Flag or Union Jack) and this would seem to be supported by the adjacent photo that has Hitler meeting UK Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain. This is also supported by the fact that it's customary to honour the visit of a world leader by the display of his country's flag.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Helly Angel » 12 Jun 2021 07:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KytnwVvG8Ys

A short video who someone did in 2018 with the exterior face of the building and the view street.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by CPB » 02 Jul 2021 09:36

Does anyone have a list of the staff who worked at Hitler's Munich apartment?

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