Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#1

Post by Futurist » 18 Mar 2021, 01:32

What exactly did Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War consist of? I know that people such as Jozef Pilsudski wanted to create an independent Ukrainian state east of the Zbruch River and led by Symon Petliura. However, what about Belarus? Obviously Poland outright annexed western Belarus at the end of the Polish-Soviet War in real life, but just what exactly did Poland want to do with central and eastern Belarus in the event that it would have managed to conquer and hold it during this very same war? Create a Belarusian puppet state out of this territory? If so, led by whom, exactly?

Any thoughts on all of this?

Martin_from_Valhalla
Member
Posts: 141
Joined: 12 Feb 2021, 06:22
Location: Russia, Siberia

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#2

Post by Martin_from_Valhalla » 18 Mar 2021, 08:11

Hardly a puppet state, just an incorporated territory with bigger autonomy. More important in this war are bolshevik's plans or aims. Were they struggling to Germany through Poland to bring global revolution? Germany was in a state of pre-revolutionary chaos.


Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#3

Post by Futurist » 18 Mar 2021, 22:07

Just how strong was the Communist position in Germany in 1920? I thought that it was already pretty weak after the defeat and destruction of the Spartacists.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8759
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#4

Post by wm » 21 Mar 2021, 00:21

The Poles had no plans for Belarus. It was Polish territory (with insignificant nationalistic feelings) to be incorporated into Poland.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#5

Post by Futurist » 21 Mar 2021, 21:59

Was the goal to fully Polonize its inhabitants?

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8759
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#6

Post by wm » 22 Mar 2021, 00:33

The problem with a question about plans during the war is it wasn't the Poles but Piłsudski alone who did the planning.
But he kept his cards close to his chest (afraid of the Allies and his political enemies in Warsaw) so we really don't know such details (if any) of his plans.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#7

Post by Futurist » 22 Mar 2021, 23:47

No notes, diaries, anything of his from this time period?

User avatar
henryk
Member
Posts: 2559
Joined: 27 Jan 2004, 02:11
Location: London, Ontario

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#8

Post by henryk » 23 Mar 2021, 21:08

viewtopic.php?f=111&t=231330&hilit=pilsudski
henryk wrote:
23 Oct 2017, 20:31
There were two opposing Polish aims, that of Pilsudski, and that of National Democracy leader Roman Dmowski.
See the thread:
Pilsudski, Poland, and the Central European Union
viewtopic.php?f=111&t=192843&hilit=pilsudski
Pilsudski envisioned a Central European Union, which included the western non-ethnic Russian territories. Dmowski's position:
Pilsudski's concept was opposed within Poland itself, where National Democracy leader Roman Dmowski[32][33] argued for an ethnically purer Poland in which minorities would be Polonized.[34][35] Many Polish politicians, including Dmowski, opposed the idea of a multicultural federation, preferring instead to work for a unitary Polish nation-state.
Dmowski won out, asking the Russians for less than they were willing to offer. Polamd did achieve a decisive vicory in the war.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#9

Post by Futurist » 23 Mar 2021, 22:51

Why was the Polish government during this time dominated more by Dmowski's followers than by Pilsudski's followers?

User avatar
henryk
Member
Posts: 2559
Joined: 27 Jan 2004, 02:11
Location: London, Ontario

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#10

Post by henryk » 24 Mar 2021, 21:04

Why was Trump elected president?

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8759
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#11

Post by wm » 25 Mar 2021, 00:52

Futurist wrote:
23 Mar 2021, 22:51
Why was the Polish government during this time dominated more by Dmowski's followers than by Pilsudski's followers?
Dmowski and his party was an established and significant political power, Piłsudski was just him and his army.
Additionally, the other political powers - the peasants, the socialists opposed Piłsudski and his war.

By the time of the Polish-Soviet War (1920), the idea of federation was firmly dead (after the Sejny Uprising and the failed 1919 Polish coup d'état in Lithuania). By that time it was obvious Lithuania, the cornerstone of the federation would not support it.
Anyway in his letter to his friend (1919) Piłsudski wrote:
I'm not an imperialist, nor a federalist - till I will have a chance to speak about it with authority - and with a gun in my pocket.
Because in God's Creation, it seems, begins to dominate the prattle about human and nations brotherhood and the little American doctrines I'm gladly lean of the side of the federalists.
so there.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#12

Post by Futurist » 25 Mar 2021, 05:09

Lithuania doesn't actually strike me as being particularly crucial for such a federation due to its small population, though. Plus, Poland already had access to the Baltic Sea. What exactly am I missing here?

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8759
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#13

Post by wm » 25 Mar 2021, 07:07

Just a little earlier the country was called Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Lithuania was larger than Poland itself and Belarus was part of Lithuania.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#14

Post by Futurist » 30 Mar 2021, 01:22

wm wrote:
25 Mar 2021, 07:07
Just a little earlier the country was called Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Lithuania was larger than Poland itself and Belarus was part of Lithuania.
But post-World War I Lithuania was nowhere near as large as the old Lithuania was.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8759
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

#15

Post by wm » 30 Mar 2021, 13:30

It would be hard to resurrect the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth without one of its main parts.
According to Piłsudski (but others too), Poland and Lithuania were historic, viable states but Belarus and Ukraine weren't - they wouldn't be able to form stable countries, to survive alone.
The distinction is actually visible even today: Poland/Lithuania are democracies, but Belarus is a dictatorship, Ukraine a kleptocracy (with all due respects to all Ukrainians).

Post Reply

Return to “Poland 1919-1945”