German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

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ThatZenoGuy
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German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 30 Mar 2021 13:11

I've always been curious about what'd happen if the Germans continued to improve their forces, extrapolating from what they ended up with as the war ended.

For example the King Tiger's frontal hull was about 230mm line of sight thickness, and its turret 185mm thick. However this is not so stellar compared to the IS3, of 1945 date, with superior hull armor and 250mm of turret armor at the weakest.

This only gets worse with the Panther, who's 140mm frontal hull armor and 120mm (Schmalturm) turret armor was beaten by the T-44's 180mm hull armor and at least equal turret.

Both of the Soviet tanks were lighter weight, although this had the consequence of a much smaller ammo loadout, the IS3 carrying a 'measly' 28 rounds to the King Tiger's 70, and the T-44's loadout of 58 to the Panther's 82.

However the King Tiger did appear to be a vast improvement in turret design compared to the Tiger 1, with a giant readyrack in the rear of the turret for fast efficient loading, and a narrow turret front allowing for much heavier armor.

But this still seemingly was not enough, as they were out-armored by Soviet designs, with yet heavier ones like the IS4 with close to 300mm of frontal turret armor right on the doorstep.

The Germans had the "E-Series" tanks planned, but ultimately we don't actually know what turret armor they were going to have, only their hull designs.

Allegedly the front armor thickness of the E-75 (according to scaling from the documents that were found) would be approximately 150-160mm, which at the angle of 60 degrees is a rather hefty 300mm. Scaling from the Tiger 2 that'd result in a turret thickness of 240mm, which is immune to basically every WW2 munition barring subcalibers, but soon enough HEAT-FS would be arriving to the continent, and yet larger subcaliber weaponry.

But instead of making a huge flat slab of armor, they could've made a better design like the Lowe's 'turret face is a sloped mantlet' design, that to me always looked like a good idea, or moving onto castings (why did they resist castings so much?).

So where exactly do you think the Germans would've ended up, five, ten years past 1945? What sorta tank would be facing IS4's and T-54's?

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by bam » 30 Mar 2021 16:42

With the German lack of resources, Petrol, oil, lubricants, and loss of steel production and more importantly the loss of the rare metals used to dope the steel to make it hard, like molybdenum, chrome and nickel, their future lay in cheap, light tanks like the PzJg38D and Waffentraegers.
If the war had carried on years, my guess is that the predominant German vehicle in the panzertruppen would’ve been the bicycle with 2 panzerfausts attached....
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50C42FF2-FC0F-4724-9730-6F2631AA7CFC.jpeg
A6677EC5-2FDB-4166-8A8C-1CE60B40D249.jpeg
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Terry Duncan
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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Terry Duncan » 30 Mar 2021 17:48

Quite possibly a larger investment in Pak front defences rather than vehicles as Germany wasnt going to be attacking much with tanks.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by maltesefalcon » 30 Mar 2021 19:08

As referenced in an above post, the predominant issue of weapons (post-Jan 1945, for example) was not design, but lack of available resources.

Even if the Reich opted to use only proven older designs, they would have been inundated by much higher numbers of Allied AFV and aircraft of every type on all fronts.

The Allies also improved their inventory. Pershing, JS and Centurion tanks; plus jet aircraft from UK and USA did not arrive in time to make an impact in WWII. But a prolonged engagement would likely see them used in combat in earnest.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 31 Mar 2021 02:26

bam wrote:
30 Mar 2021 16:42
With the German lack of resources, Petrol, oil, lubricants, and loss of steel production and more importantly the loss of the rare metals used to dope the steel to make it hard, like molybdenum, chrome and nickel, their future lay in cheap, light tanks like the PzJg38D and Waffentraegers.
If the war had carried on years, my guess is that the predominant German vehicle in the panzertruppen would’ve been the bicycle with 2 panzerfausts attached....
.
50C42FF2-FC0F-4724-9730-6F2631AA7CFC.jpegA6677EC5-2FDB-4166-8A8C-1CE60B40D249.jpeg
Oh...Well that's a realistic assessment but not a very fun one! Haha.

I suppose likely in that case there'd be a lot more of the "PAW" HEAT-FS cannons being made. They were cheap, and rather effective. Although low ranged for a cannon.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 02 Apr 2021 00:42

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 02 Apr 2021 00:44

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by danebrog » 02 Apr 2021 21:54

When I see the Panther with two barrels:
projected E-5 Panzerkleinzerstörer "Rutscher"
f17g.jpg
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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by maltesefalcon » 03 Apr 2021 15:09

danebrog wrote:
02 Apr 2021 21:54
When I see the Panther with two barrels:
projected E-5 Panzerkleinzerstörer "Rutscher"
f17g.jpg
So after six years of war the Reich comes up with what amounts to an upgraded Bren Gun carrier.
I wonder how much impact they would have had if they had appeared en masse?

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by thaddeus_c » 08 Apr 2021 09:52

maltesefalcon wrote:
03 Apr 2021 15:09
danebrog wrote:
02 Apr 2021 21:54
When I see the Panther with two barrels:
projected E-5 Panzerkleinzerstörer "Rutscher"
f17g.jpg
So after six years of war the Reich comes up with what amounts to an upgraded Bren Gun carrier.
I wonder how much impact they would have had if they had appeared en masse?
cannot help but chuckle at the pictures but that was projected to be equipped with the PAW weapon? which would have approx. 5xs the range of a Panzerschreck in the anti-tank role (and without the "stove pipe" effect?

the type of weapon(s) they needed in 1943 to have some effects?

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by danebrog » 08 Apr 2021 12:30

In well-prepared ambushes, I would see a certain probability of success with such a tin can
I'm more pessimistic about survival afterwards
IMHO these are more weapons of "mass desperation" than of "mass destruction"

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by bam » 10 Apr 2021 01:17

Oh...Well that's a realistic assessment but not a very fun one! Haha.
Well what did you want us to say? Germany fields a panzer army of 500 Maus tanks?
The 180 ton Maus is still the heaviest tank ever made, as far as I know, so the Germans did that, made the biggest thing ever. It trundled round the kummersdorf test area for a year, series production got cancelled before it was actually tested due to its monstrous material cost, then in April 1945 when Konievs army was nearby, they fuelled it up and sent it out to do battle. It broke down just outside the main gates, and was blown up to serve as a 180 ton roadblock. There's a your panzerwaffe 46 dream...

Speer was instrumental in getting the PzJg38t into production, cos he could see the future was small, economical to run, afv.s. That is what they learnt by 1945.
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A little known but very influential vehicle was the Wanze, the borgward IV with 6 panzerschreck rocket launchers...
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This was an excellent idea, and also the world's first mass produced armoured missile tank destroyer, which is now a very widespread vehicle type. The Wanze was a truly revolutionary idea, only let down by short range. Should have armed it with puppchen or PAW s (750m range). But still, a very sensible solution to Germany's tank needs.
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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Cult Icon » 10 Apr 2021 02:19

The most important vehicle they didn't have was something like the Kangaroo.

I am not aware if "paper panzers" had an idea for a fully tracked, heavily armored troop carrier.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by bam » 11 Apr 2021 18:38

Agree, the armour lesson of ww2 is that every army needed serious infantry fighting vehicles, something often overshadowed by the development of the tank. Ww2 was the start of the IFV.
The Germans had a good start with the sd.kfz.251 series, but couldn't progress further due to economics. They developed fully tracked IFVs in the Katchen series but by 1944 when those were ready, couldn't afford to make em. But even they weren't as heavily armoured as kangaroos, and panzertracts paper panzers books don't mention such a heavy german vehicle.

It seems to have taken armies a long time to relearn the kangaroo idea. The ubiquitous american M113 style carriers, used by everyone upto the 1990s, were too weakly armoured, so that roops often rode on their roof rather than inside where a mine would obliterate them. It took Israeli repurposing of obsolete centurian tanks to reinvent the idea of an APC with tank armour in the 1980s, needed to defeat the rpg. Now every army is trying that concept.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Apr 2021 21:37

bam wrote:
10 Apr 2021 01:17
But still, a very sensible solution to Germany's tank needs.
A possible (but very unlikely) answer to German anti-tank problems but in no way a replacement for tanks. Tanks spend most of their time firing HE at soft targets and I can't imagine one of these contraptions lasting very long on a battlefield once it is identified.
They could cover it with armoured plate (like a tank)to make it less vulnerable................

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