21 st Panzer, Normandy

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spannermann
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by spannermann » 03 Apr 2021 19:21

Hi,
Approximately around early June 1944, The Panzer Lehr Division transferred to the 21st PzD 15x PzIV ;-

4x fron PzLehrJag Abt 130, PzIV numbers 331, 332, 333, 334. 331 becoming 612 of 6/PzRgt 22.
9x from PzLehr Rgt 130
2x from PzLehr Nacht Abt 130

cheers PAUL

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Sheldrake
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Sheldrake » 03 Apr 2021 19:26

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:
03 Apr 2021 17:15

I agree that it is possible that they could have fudged the numbers. They might also have had the motivation to do so, though I would still argue that any allocation of vehicles to other units would most likely only be done if the number of vehicles allocated was of a certain size. Allocating one or two vehicles with which the mechanics of those units were not familiar would not have made much sense. Of course that said, logic was not always the deciding factor when it comes to German armored history.

In either case, it seems that the argument isn't so much that they didn't have the vehicles stated, but rather that they possibly had more? This would not be the first time that this was the case, especially for older equipment that was no longer considered important enough to be reported upon.
I am merely advancing a conspiracy theory, but it is based on my own experience in the British Q World and observations of organisational behaviour. The 21st Panzer Division was in this wonderful position of creating its own kit. I did wonder if the multiple Brandt mortars weren't some cunning way of saving manpower.

I agree with your assessment One or two over strength isn't going to worry anyone, but if Kortenhaus' narrative is correct they were hiding enough AFVs for two extra batteries over their establishment. We know from his criminal record that Feuchtinger was dishonest, so why not under report? It isn't as if anyone is going to find out before the landings and afterwards there is an argument that they are best used by Becker.

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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 03 Apr 2021 20:17

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:
If I can find the original, this should at least be able to confirm whether the 14 Pz IV arrived before or after 1 June.
I think I have a copy...if I can find it. Good excuse to organize my new office.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Yoozername » 03 Apr 2021 20:46

Report on the status of the 21.Pz.Div. of the month of May 1944 drawn up on 06.01.1944 (5 days before the start of the Normandy invasion). This division was at this time subordinate to 'XXXXVII-Pz.Korps' (Source: Ia Nr. 1732/44 g.Kdos.) Translator's

notes :
The table with data referring to the division's light weapons has been omitted.
http://www.panzer-elmito.org/panzertrup ... _01_E.html

<Spanish translation so translate to English>

Brady
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Brady » 03 Apr 2021 21:01

I wonder what factor the crew sizes played in all of this, I mean they’re upgrading from a three man tank to a 5 man tank. And it would look like they’re going into action within a few days of receiving them.

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 03 Apr 2021 22:02

Richard Anderson wrote:
03 Apr 2021 20:17
Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:
If I can find the original, this should at least be able to confirm whether the 14 Pz IV arrived before or after 1 June.
I think I have a copy...if I can find it. Good excuse to organize my new office.
I managed to find a copy on NARA T312 R1566, frame 221. Unfortunately, the section with the number of Pz Kpfw IVs is illegible. If you have another copy, I would certainly be interested in the numbers. The same roll lists 78 long-barreled and 10 short-barreled Pz Kpfw IV, as well as 39 Somua and 10 Hotchkiss, on 1 March.
Yoozername wrote:
03 Apr 2021 20:46
Report on the status of the 21.Pz.Div. of the month of May 1944 drawn up on 06.01.1944 (5 days before the start of the Normandy invasion). This division was at this time subordinate to 'XXXXVII-Pz.Korps' (Source: Ia Nr. 1732/44 g.Kdos.) Translator's

notes :
The table with data referring to the division's light weapons has been omitted.
http://www.panzer-elmito.org/panzertrup ... _01_E.html

<Spanish translation so translate to English>
Indeed, that is the same report that I used in the link above. As you can see, however, the numbers to not match those that I took from the Kriegsgliederung.

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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 03 Apr 2021 23:48

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:
03 Apr 2021 22:02
I managed to find a copy on NARA T312 R1566, frame 221. Unfortunately, the section with the number of Pz Kpfw IVs is illegible. If you have another copy, I would certainly be interested in the numbers. The same roll lists 78 long-barreled and 10 short-barreled Pz Kpfw IV, as well as 39 Somua and 10 Hotchkiss, on 1 March.
Yes, it is one of the poorer quality microfilms.

It looks like as of 1 May they reported 22 Pz-IV (lg) each in 1.-4. Kompanie. The I. Abteilung Stab figures are very blurred, but appear to be "2 Bef Pz III" and something else illegible. There are no Panzers listed for the II. Abteilung Stab. 5. Kp. is 18 Somua. 6. Kp. is 12 Ho and 3 So. 7. Kp. is 18 So. 8. Kp. is 6 Pz IV (kz). The Regiments Stab has 1 Bef Pz III and a blurry number of Pz IV (lg), I would guess maybe 5.

So probably the Bef Pz III remained the same at 3. The 39 Somua did not change from 1 March, but the Hotckiss increased by 2 by 1 May and then decreased by 10 by 1 June. There were at least 88 Pz IV (lg), so c. 8-10 more arrived by around 1 June. Looks like the number of Pz IV (kz) decreased by 4 to 6 by 1 May and remained the same on 1 June.

It is most interesting that it appears they shed five Pz IV (lg) each from 1.-4. to start building up 5.-7. Kp. and the II. Abteilung Stabskompanie.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Sheldrake
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Sheldrake » 04 Apr 2021 09:01

Richard Anderson wrote:
03 Apr 2021 23:48
It is most interesting that it appears they shed five Pz IV (lg) each from 1.-4. to start building up 5.-7. Kp. and the II. Abteilung Stabskompanie.
That would be logical in order to allow for familiarisation training in advance of receiving the equipment.

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Алексей
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Алексей » 04 Apr 2021 13:11

Delivery of Pz.IV tanks in 21st Panzer division:
13 were sent on 12 September 1943;
17 were sent on 14 September 1943;
23 were sent on 20 October 1943(transferred to the 14th Panzer division);
4 were sent on 31 December 1943;
9 were sent on 26 January 1944;
12 were sent on 29 January 1944;
20 were sent on 5 March 1944;
14 were sent on 24 May 1944.
Передача Pz.IV из PanzerLehr в 21 PzDiv.jpg
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spannermann
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by spannermann » 04 Apr 2021 16:07

Hi Anekcen,
Are the transferred Pz IV from the PzLehr Div in addition to your list of deliveries ?.

cheers PAUL

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Алексей
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Алексей » 04 Apr 2021 17:02

spannermann wrote:
04 Apr 2021 16:07
Hi Anekcen,
Are the transferred Pz IV from the PzLehr Div in addition to your list of deliveries ?.

cheers PAUL
Tanks transferred from PzLehr are not included in the delivery schedule.

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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 04 Apr 2021 17:08

spannermann wrote:
04 Apr 2021 16:07
Hi Anekcen,
Are the transferred Pz IV from the PzLehr Div in addition to your list of deliveries ?.

cheers PAUL
Those 13 are probably a subset of the 15 you posted earlier. Note that Anekcen's document includes two Ausf F tanks, which likely were still 7.5cm kurz. 82090 was likely completed by Grusonwerk in September 1941 and 82351 a few months later, so they were quite elderly. I suspect those were the two transferred from the Pz.-Nachr.-Lehr-Abtl. 130.

Note that Panzer Lehr reported on 1 June:

II./Pz.-Lehr-Regt. 130
Stab u. Stabskompanie (8 Pz.-IV (lg))
5. Kp. (22 Pz.-IV (lg))
6. Kp. (22 Pz.-IV (lg))
7. Kp. (21 Pz.-IV (lg))
8. Kp. (21 Pz.-IV (lg))

Plus, 5 Pz-IV (lg) with the Stabskompanie of Pz.-Lehr-Regt. 130, but it seems possible some of those were included with the transfers to 21. Panzer c. 25 May.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

spannermann
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by spannermann » 04 Apr 2021 20:16

Hi Richard,
Thanks for the data, but I do not really see why you would think that the StabsKp PzLehr Rgt 130 would give away some of its panzers, they were entitled to eight, 3 BefelPz and 5 AufklPz, as was StabsKp II/PzLehr Rgt 130, eight panzer in a Regt or Batt Stab were the standard arrangement in 1944.
Do you have something official to confirm this possible transfer.

The other point about early Ausf F chassis numbers meaning short barrel 7,5 could also be misleading, the Germans had a very large update programme especially for PzIV's, and whist they are old F1 chassis numbers they could easily have been uparmoured and upgunned in the four years of their existence.

I believe the PzIV in the Bovington Tank Museum is a good example of this updating, it was I believe originally something from before an F1 and is now is closer to an Ausf G, excuse me not remembering the exact details for it, but its chassis number has not changed.

cheers PAUL

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 04 Apr 2021 22:12

Алексей wrote:
04 Apr 2021 13:11
Delivery of Pz.IV tanks in 21st Panzer division:
13 were sent on 12 September 1943;
17 were sent on 14 September 1943;
23 were sent on 20 October 1943(transferred to the 14th Panzer division);
4 were sent on 31 December 1943;
9 were sent on 26 January 1944;
12 were sent on 29 January 1944;
20 were sent on 5 March 1944;
14 were sent on 24 May 1944.
Передача Pz.IV из PanzerLehr в 21 PzDiv.jpg
I get some slightly different data from the delivery reports:
  • 12 September 1943: 13
  • 14 September 1943: 17
  • 3 October 1943: 2 (originally 23, 21 rerouted to 14. Panzer-Division)
  • 20 October 1944: 21 (originally to 14. Panzer-Division)
  • 31 December 1944: 4 (new stock: 57)
  • 26 January 1944: 9
  • 29 January 1944: 12 (new stock: 78)
  • 5 March 1944: 20 (new stock: 98)
  • 24 May 1944: 14 shipped
So looking at the different reports (assuming those sent 29 January had arrived by 1 March):
  • 1 March: 88 (78 long-barreled, 10 short-barreled - matches deliveries if not including short-barreled)
  • 5 March: 20 shipped
  • 1 May: 99 (93 long-barreled (+15) but numbers unclear, 6 short-barreled (-4))
  • 24 May: 14 shipped
  • 1 June: 100 (94 long-barreled (+1), 6 short-barreled (=)) (or 98 operational and 6 undergoing maintenance if using summary)
  • 10 June: 112
This would seem to indicate that the 14 tanks sent on 24 May had not arrived by 1 June, but that additional tanks had arrived by 10 June. Whether these were those sent on 24 May, those handed over by Pz Lehr Div, or both would require more data to determine.

Richard and spannerman, at the risk of coming off as intellectually snobbish, his name is Alexey (or some variant thereof, depending on preferred translitteration), not Anekcen.

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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 04 Apr 2021 22:44

spannermann wrote:
04 Apr 2021 20:16
Hi Richard,
Thanks for the data, but I do not really see why you would think that the StabsKp PzLehr Rgt 130 would give away some of its panzers, they were entitled to eight, 3 BefelPz and 5 AufklPz, as was StabsKp II/PzLehr Rgt 130, eight panzer in a Regt or Batt Stab were the standard arrangement in 1944.
Do you have something official to confirm this possible transfer.
Oh, you're right, I was thinking five without checking, but yes eight with the reconnaissance and HQ platoons.
The other point about early Ausf F chassis numbers meaning short barrel 7,5 could also be misleading, the Germans had a very large update programme especially for PzIV's, and whist they are old F1 chassis numbers they could easily have been uparmoured and upgunned in the four years of their existence.
AFAIK only 25 Ausf F were rebuilt as "lang". The odds of the two transferred from Lehr to 21. Panzer being such is somewhat remote. Anyway, c. June 1944, there were still around 21 Pz-IV (kz) in Ob West, 6-10 with 21. Panzer and 3 with 179. Res-Panzer. The majority of rebuilt tanks were simply battle-damaged tanks evacuated to the Heimat for reconstruction.
I believe the PzIV in the Bovington Tank Museum is a good example of this updating, it was I believe originally something from before an F1 and is now is closer to an Ausf G, excuse me not remembering the exact details for it, but its chassis number has not changed.
The Bovington Panzer is a Pz-IVD, Fgst N 80732, which at some time was fitted with a Pz-IVG turret, probably late in the war, and used as an NSKK driving instruction vehicle. That does not make it a rebuild, but more likely a "kit bash", but in full scale.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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