This turned inot a bathroom book project for me, and a few days of scribbling the odd moment away allowed me to gather a few interesting things. (make of that what you will)
Firstly, since I mentioned them first and there may be some contribution these ships can make, here is US share of the Kriegsmarine came to .... now counting U-Boats;
Heavy Cruiser- Prinz Eugen
Destroyers- Z.29, Z.34
Torpedo Boats (frigates) - T.15, T.19, T.21 (I advise giving these a pass, the PLAN didn't exist yet)
Fleet Sloops (fast escorts) F.1, F.8, F.10
Corvette - MZ.1..... 2 x 88mm, 1 x 37mm, 4 x 20mm, Draft 7.5 feet max., 14 knots *
“S” Boats (unallocated) - x5
Motor Mine Sweepers - x17
Minesweepers - Dozens
Coal-Powered Minesweepers- x 8 (could be of interst, China was still using coal locomotives at the turn of this century)
State Yacht Grille; 2600-3400 tons, 26 knots, 3 x 88mm, 4 x 37mm, 8 x 20mm
I am not sure what you could make of this last one, a fast transport of maybe a Coast Guard flagship? Nobody had much interest, it was scrapped in New Jersey in 1950. The scrap-market must have been glutted by then....
* this is a very interesting little ship; at 285 tons is masses hardly any more than the Gunboats of the various squadrons, but has far more firepower and would make a good model riverine/coastal units to be built in China henceforth.
This isn't much, but it would allow the Nationalists to have better control of the northern coastal areas and major rivers too.
Was a large-scale US military intervention to prop up the Nationalists during the Chinese Civil War ever realistic?
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AnchorSteam
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AnchorSteam
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- Joined: 31 Oct 2020, 06:43
- Location: WAY out there
Re: Was a large-scale US military intervention to prop up the Nationalists during the Chinese Civil War ever realistic?
I did a lot of scribbling.... 
Land War
Let's look at it in terms of tonnage (and I will call it done when I think I have reached a maximum that seems reasonable in terms of individual items)
Just 1,000 tons gets you;
10 x Puma Armored Cars (all sub-types are listed at 11.5 tons with the 50mm-gun version being a little heavier, and the least likely to be seen in 1945.)
18 x 150mm SiG-33 S.P. (38t)
12 x Ammo carriers
50 x Goliath
10 x S.P. Nebelwerfer
8 x Mark IVh Tanks
Small Arms; 85 tons (10,000 x K-98, 1400 x MG-42, 7500 x Panzerfaust)
Ammunition; 250 tons
Spare parts; 5 tons
But 1,000 tons is nothing in the shipping world, very ordinary cargo ships could handle 10 times that, so lets bump this up and see what adding 9,000 tons can put in the field with a theoretical TO&E instead of listing it out like I did above... it would just duplicate too much stuff.
First of all, add an additional 3,000 tons of ammo and 428 tons of spare parts.
What we get is four Infantry Divisions plus a Corps HQ to control them and to hold critical assets in reserve, plus the start of a Mechanized Division and an Engineer Brigade.
EACH of the four Infantry Divisions gets;
14,000 x K-98
1200 x MG-42
40 x 105mm How.
18 x 150mm gun/how.
11 x Stug III
4 x SP. 150mm
2 x SP. Quad 20mm
This is exceptionally large and powerful for a Chinese Division of the time, perhaps a double-division and a “Corps” in itself, but that’s a matter of semantics.
The Quad 20mm are on halftracks and are there to have a mobil reaction-force to the kind of massed human-wave attacks the PLA would sometimes resort to. It is really a moral-booster, the MG-42 is a much more efficient way to deal with that problem. The Stugs and the SP. 150s are there to allow the Division to push ahead with an attack that has gone beyond the range of their artillery, and that artillery is lavish by local standards.
10 x RSO are also provided to give some all-terrain logistic support that is not dependent on coolies.
Corps HQ;
8 x SdKfz.263 (radio armored cars)
4 x Puma (escorts for the above)
1,000 x K-98
100 x MG-42
10 x SdKfz.251 APC (for Corps Guards)
2 x Quad 20mm SP.
10 x Nebelwerfer SP (with ammo trailers)
10 x JagdPnzer IV L/70
The last two are to be held by Corps until the place in greatest heed is identified. The Tank-Destroyers are late additions meant to combat PLA tanks in case all of this causes the USSR to provide Mao with some genuine Armor.
12 x 150mm guns can also be held by the Corps
Mechanized Division;
10,000 x K-98
1200 x MG-42
125 x SdKfz.251
2 x Quad 20mm SP
4 x SdKfz.263 (rad)
6 x Puma
32 x 105mm how.
16 x 150mm gun/how
8 x Mark IV tanks
24 x Panther + 2 x BergPanther
12 x Brumbar
40 x RSO
That is enough halftracks to carry 2 or even 3 Battalions, depending on how they are organized. The Brumbar are there instead of the lighter 150mm SP.s because you don’t want to deploy a unit like this in a place that has sub-standard bridges or roads, or has not been secured by the engineers first.
And speaking of them…
(assault) Engineer Brigade;
3,000 K-98
200 x MG-42
15 x SdKfz.251
8 x 105mm how.
8 x Brumbar
2 x SP. 150mm
6 x Stug.III
50 x Goliath
2 x Quad 20mm SP.
20 x RSO
This is the one unit that has a combination of Brumbar and a couple of 150mm in lighter, barely armored vehicles because the unit may have to send some firepower down narrow roads or float them on make-shift rafts just to get so firepower where it is needed most. The Stugs are there because that is what the Germans used to control Golaiths with, I’m not sure why.
There are also enough halftracks there to mount a Company of assault troops, and two batteries of 105s to guarantee that the engineers have that much support when they need it.
Other gear, such as bulldozers and bridging equipment will be taken from the better source; the USA. This is also true for all the trucks that will be required. Not only is it the better source, but few of the trucks that crossed the Ledo Road ever made the return trip.
All that, from just one shipload.
The Battle of the Atlantic looms large in the mind, doesn’t it?
And if you can manage to add a 2nd shipload of the same size, things get even better;
2 x Hetzer Battalions (EACH with 50 x Hetzers + 2 x SdKfz.250)
10 x SdKfz.250 for Corps HQ (I am taking 250’s this time to give HQ a nice ride so that they don’t pinch the 251s from the guys that really need them)
For the Mechanized Division; 80 x Mark IV, 20 x Panther, 20 x SdKfz.250 (in this case, most of the 250s will be in Recon), and replace 20 x 105mm with Wespe and 12 x Hummel also replace towed guns.
6 x SdKfz.250 go to Engineers.
ALSO; 4,000 tons of ammo, 580 tons of spare parts, and 1,000 tons of mortars, light artillery and flak.
And, that is all.
Going beyond this is probably impractical, given the amount and likely condition of what was surrendered.
So what you have is a very fine Corps, or a small Army in fact. However, given the scale of the war in China, it is not going to win it for you in itself. While it would make a fine addition and possibly turn the tide on any one front, it is NOT a suitable replacement for American aid … such as it was by 1946.
Land War
Let's look at it in terms of tonnage (and I will call it done when I think I have reached a maximum that seems reasonable in terms of individual items)
Just 1,000 tons gets you;
10 x Puma Armored Cars (all sub-types are listed at 11.5 tons with the 50mm-gun version being a little heavier, and the least likely to be seen in 1945.)
18 x 150mm SiG-33 S.P. (38t)
12 x Ammo carriers
50 x Goliath
10 x S.P. Nebelwerfer
8 x Mark IVh Tanks
Small Arms; 85 tons (10,000 x K-98, 1400 x MG-42, 7500 x Panzerfaust)
Ammunition; 250 tons
Spare parts; 5 tons
But 1,000 tons is nothing in the shipping world, very ordinary cargo ships could handle 10 times that, so lets bump this up and see what adding 9,000 tons can put in the field with a theoretical TO&E instead of listing it out like I did above... it would just duplicate too much stuff.
First of all, add an additional 3,000 tons of ammo and 428 tons of spare parts.
What we get is four Infantry Divisions plus a Corps HQ to control them and to hold critical assets in reserve, plus the start of a Mechanized Division and an Engineer Brigade.
EACH of the four Infantry Divisions gets;
14,000 x K-98
1200 x MG-42
40 x 105mm How.
18 x 150mm gun/how.
11 x Stug III
4 x SP. 150mm
2 x SP. Quad 20mm
This is exceptionally large and powerful for a Chinese Division of the time, perhaps a double-division and a “Corps” in itself, but that’s a matter of semantics.
The Quad 20mm are on halftracks and are there to have a mobil reaction-force to the kind of massed human-wave attacks the PLA would sometimes resort to. It is really a moral-booster, the MG-42 is a much more efficient way to deal with that problem. The Stugs and the SP. 150s are there to allow the Division to push ahead with an attack that has gone beyond the range of their artillery, and that artillery is lavish by local standards.
10 x RSO are also provided to give some all-terrain logistic support that is not dependent on coolies.
Corps HQ;
8 x SdKfz.263 (radio armored cars)
4 x Puma (escorts for the above)
1,000 x K-98
100 x MG-42
10 x SdKfz.251 APC (for Corps Guards)
2 x Quad 20mm SP.
10 x Nebelwerfer SP (with ammo trailers)
10 x JagdPnzer IV L/70
The last two are to be held by Corps until the place in greatest heed is identified. The Tank-Destroyers are late additions meant to combat PLA tanks in case all of this causes the USSR to provide Mao with some genuine Armor.
12 x 150mm guns can also be held by the Corps
Mechanized Division;
10,000 x K-98
1200 x MG-42
125 x SdKfz.251
2 x Quad 20mm SP
4 x SdKfz.263 (rad)
6 x Puma
32 x 105mm how.
16 x 150mm gun/how
8 x Mark IV tanks
24 x Panther + 2 x BergPanther
12 x Brumbar
40 x RSO
That is enough halftracks to carry 2 or even 3 Battalions, depending on how they are organized. The Brumbar are there instead of the lighter 150mm SP.s because you don’t want to deploy a unit like this in a place that has sub-standard bridges or roads, or has not been secured by the engineers first.
And speaking of them…
(assault) Engineer Brigade;
3,000 K-98
200 x MG-42
15 x SdKfz.251
8 x 105mm how.
8 x Brumbar
2 x SP. 150mm
6 x Stug.III
50 x Goliath
2 x Quad 20mm SP.
20 x RSO
This is the one unit that has a combination of Brumbar and a couple of 150mm in lighter, barely armored vehicles because the unit may have to send some firepower down narrow roads or float them on make-shift rafts just to get so firepower where it is needed most. The Stugs are there because that is what the Germans used to control Golaiths with, I’m not sure why.
There are also enough halftracks there to mount a Company of assault troops, and two batteries of 105s to guarantee that the engineers have that much support when they need it.
Other gear, such as bulldozers and bridging equipment will be taken from the better source; the USA. This is also true for all the trucks that will be required. Not only is it the better source, but few of the trucks that crossed the Ledo Road ever made the return trip.
All that, from just one shipload.
The Battle of the Atlantic looms large in the mind, doesn’t it?
And if you can manage to add a 2nd shipload of the same size, things get even better;
2 x Hetzer Battalions (EACH with 50 x Hetzers + 2 x SdKfz.250)
10 x SdKfz.250 for Corps HQ (I am taking 250’s this time to give HQ a nice ride so that they don’t pinch the 251s from the guys that really need them)
For the Mechanized Division; 80 x Mark IV, 20 x Panther, 20 x SdKfz.250 (in this case, most of the 250s will be in Recon), and replace 20 x 105mm with Wespe and 12 x Hummel also replace towed guns.
6 x SdKfz.250 go to Engineers.
ALSO; 4,000 tons of ammo, 580 tons of spare parts, and 1,000 tons of mortars, light artillery and flak.
And, that is all.
Going beyond this is probably impractical, given the amount and likely condition of what was surrendered.
So what you have is a very fine Corps, or a small Army in fact. However, given the scale of the war in China, it is not going to win it for you in itself. While it would make a fine addition and possibly turn the tide on any one front, it is NOT a suitable replacement for American aid … such as it was by 1946.
Re: Was a large-scale US military intervention to prop up the Nationalists during the Chinese Civil War ever realistic?
Any US Involment in Mainland China would have failed for the Same reason the US Failed in Vietnam...it wasnt a case of winning battles...the US WOuld NOT HAVE WON THE HEARTS OF THE PEOPLE>....many americans could not understand that..they still thought China as it was either in 1890's when the US "Open Door" Policy...China is an ancient civiliaation and will not be comquered by anyone....not by Japan; France; Germany; England,,or the US...
Re: Was a large-scale US military intervention to prop up the Nationalists during the Chinese Civil War ever realistic?
Did the US actually win the hearts and minds of the South Korean people?Linkagain wrote: ↑14 Apr 2021, 18:06Any US Involment in Mainland China would have failed for the Same reason the US Failed in Vietnam...it wasnt a case of winning battles...the US WOuld NOT HAVE WON THE HEARTS OF THE PEOPLE>....many americans could not understand that..they still thought China as it was either in 1890's when the US "Open Door" Policy...China is an ancient civiliaation and will not be comquered by anyone....not by Japan; France; Germany; England,,or the US...