Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

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Pods
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Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by Pods » 23 Apr 2021 01:29

Many people claim that the fate of the Slavs in a Nazi victory would have been practically the same as that of the Jews, that is, total physical extermination.

The evidence I have found is very contradictory. The civil mortality of the non-Jewish population was high in Poland and the USSR (although far from the Jewish mortality), on the other hand, the non-Jewish mortality was very low in Czechoslovakia, Croatia or Slovenia.

What did the Nazis really want to do? Was it simple contempt or did they really have genocidal intentions?

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wm
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by wm » 23 Apr 2021 08:54

The extermination of the Slavs wasn't possible and even economically viable (they wouldn't be able to replace them), but a reorganization of conquered territories through mass deportations was undoubtedly needed.
All Hitler's statements to his entourage during the war were to that effect - a reorganization needed.

Hitler's goal was to win world domination or world supremacy for Germany (or at least European hegemony).
To achieve that, he needed a war and understanding with the British. Everything else was secondary to that goal.

As his country couldn't really afford the war, you had to resort to cost-effective "shortcuts", including atrocities that allowed him to eliminate enemies "on the cheap."
That was no different than the Bolsheviks and their Cheka was doing in the first years of the revolution.
Such shortcuts wouldn't be needed after the war - at least not on that scale.
The gas chambers were dismantled, and death camps razed to the ground very quickly in 1943 - that proves they weren't needed anymore.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by Pods » 29 Apr 2021 21:22

wm wrote:
23 Apr 2021 08:54
The extermination of the Slavs wasn't possible and even economically viable (they wouldn't be able to replace them), but a reorganization of conquered territories through mass deportations was undoubtedly needed.
All Hitler's statements to his entourage during the war were to that effect - a reorganization needed.

Hitler's goal was to win world domination or world supremacy for Germany (or at least European hegemony).
To achieve that, he needed a war and understanding with the British. Everything else was secondary to that goal.

As his country couldn't really afford the war, you had to resort to cost-effective "shortcuts", including atrocities that allowed him to eliminate enemies "on the cheap."
That was no different than the Bolsheviks and their Cheka was doing in the first years of the revolution.
Such shortcuts wouldn't be needed after the war - at least not on that scale.
The gas chambers were dismantled, and death camps razed to the ground very quickly in 1943 - that proves they weren't needed anymore.
However, although it is still far from the numbers of Jewish extermination, the number of non-Jewish Poles killed during the German occupation is surprising.

In the Soviet case it is much more understandable due to the total war situation, but what was the cause of the Polish deaths?

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by Thranx20 » 30 Apr 2021 01:14

Pods wrote:
29 Apr 2021 21:22
wm wrote:
23 Apr 2021 08:54
The extermination of the Slavs wasn't possible and even economically viable (they wouldn't be able to replace them), but a reorganization of conquered territories through mass deportations was undoubtedly needed.
All Hitler's statements to his entourage during the war were to that effect - a reorganization needed.

Hitler's goal was to win world domination or world supremacy for Germany (or at least European hegemony).
To achieve that, he needed a war and understanding with the British. Everything else was secondary to that goal.

As his country couldn't really afford the war, you had to resort to cost-effective "shortcuts", including atrocities that allowed him to eliminate enemies "on the cheap."
That was no different than the Bolsheviks and their Cheka was doing in the first years of the revolution.
Such shortcuts wouldn't be needed after the war - at least not on that scale.
The gas chambers were dismantled, and death camps razed to the ground very quickly in 1943 - that proves they weren't needed anymore.
However, although it is still far from the numbers of Jewish extermination, the number of non-Jewish Poles killed during the German occupation is surprising.

In the Soviet case it is much more understandable due to the total war situation, but what was the cause of the Polish deaths?
It seems that Hitlers real antagonism towards Poland and its people only came in to being around late 38/early 39 after they refused territorial concessions and allowing access to things like the Danzig Corridor and not bending over and taking it like Czechoslovakia, along with the military assistance guarantee with Britain and France in early 39. Hitler seems to have had a bit of a hissy fit over all this and pretty much gone **** Poland.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by Sheldrake » 30 Apr 2021 11:20

Pods wrote:
23 Apr 2021 01:29
Many people claim that the fate of the Slavs in a Nazi victory would have been practically the same as that of the Jews, that is, total physical extermination.

The evidence I have found is very contradictory. The civil mortality of the non-Jewish population was high in Poland and the USSR (although far from the Jewish mortality), on the other hand, the non-Jewish mortality was very low in Czechoslovakia, Croatia or Slovenia.

What did the Nazis really want to do? Was it simple contempt or did they really have genocidal intentions?
The Nazi vision for Eastern Europe was for the Germans to rule over it in the same way the British ruled India. Polish intelligencia were rounded up and executed in 1939
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligenzaktion

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by George L Gregory » 01 May 2021 22:50

No. Slavic ethnic groups were treated differently. The Nazis despised Poles and Russians, but Bulgarians, Croats, Romanians and other Slavs weren't going to be targeted by the Nazis.

The Generalplan Ost envisioned the enslavement and extermination of Baltic people and Slavic people.

https://archive.is/20120527021449/http: ... _Plans.htm

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by Pods » 02 May 2021 02:49

George L Gregory wrote:
01 May 2021 22:50
The Generalplan Ost envisioned the enslavement and extermination of Baltic people and Slavic people.

https://archive.is/20120527021449/http: ... _Plans.htm
But the Generalplan Ost does not mention anything about any extermination but to deport in the long term (25-30 years) the Slavs from certain areas of Poland and the Soviet Union.

In fact, in that link it is said that "the Polish question cannot be resolved in the same way as the Jews."

That said, although it seems that there were no systematic extermination intentions, I cannot find an answer for the large amounts of civilian deaths in the USSR and especially in Poland ...

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by George L Gregory » 02 May 2021 17:45

Pods wrote:
02 May 2021 02:49
George L Gregory wrote:
01 May 2021 22:50
The Generalplan Ost envisioned the enslavement and extermination of Baltic people and Slavic people.

https://archive.is/20120527021449/http: ... _Plans.htm
But the Generalplan Ost does not mention anything about any extermination but to deport in the long term (25-30 years) the Slavs from certain areas of Poland and the Soviet Union.

In fact, in that link it is said that "the Polish question cannot be resolved in the same way as the Jews."

That said, although it seems that there were no systematic extermination intentions, I cannot find an answer for the large amounts of civilian deaths in the USSR and especially in Poland ...
That's because the Nazis didn't have a plan to exterminate all Slavs in the same way they did for all Jews (apart from a few exceptions). Most of the Slavs were to be sent to parts of Siberia. Parts of the idea were implemented during the war - millions of people were sent to work in Germany as slave labourers in the most appalling conditions and millions of Slavs died by starvation. In some areas the Nazis deported large numbers of ethnic Poles and repopulated those areas with ethnic Germans.

Also, according to Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, Heinrich Himmler stated openly: "It is a question of existence, thus it will be a racial struggle of pitiless severity, in the course of which 20 to 30 million Slavs and Jews will perish through military actions and crises of food supply".

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by RG » 03 May 2021 10:25

George L Gregory wrote:
01 May 2021 22:50
No. Slavic ethnic groups were treated differently. The Nazis despised Poles and Russians, but Bulgarians, Croats, Romanians and other Slavs weren't going to be targeted by the Nazis.

The Generalplan Ost envisioned the enslavement and extermination of Baltic people and Slavic people.

https://archive.is/20120527021449/http: ... _Plans.htm
Romanians are not slavs

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by michael mills » 30 Jun 2021 08:40

"But the Generalplan Ost does not mention anything about any extermination but to deport in the long term (25-30 years) the Slavs from certain areas of Poland and the Soviet Union."

That is absolutely correct. In fact, in the detailed commentary by Erhard Wetzel on the first draft of the Generalplan-Ost by the RSHA, written in April 1942, the point is made that there would be a growth of the native population during the 25-year period during which the deportation were to take place, meaning that that the number to be removed from the regions scheduled for German settlement would be substantially greater than the estimate given in the first draft, some 40 million as opposed to 31 million.

A growth of the native population is of course totally incompatible with any exterminatory action, and the fact that Wetzel believed that such a population growth would take place over 25 years clearly indicates that no extermination was planned.


"Also, according to Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, Heinrich Himmler stated openly: "It is a question of existence, thus it will be a racial struggle of pitiless severity, in the course of which 20 to 30 million Slavs and Jews will perish through military actions and crises of food supply"."

That was a claim made by Bach-Zelewski in his testimony as a witness against Kaltenbrunner at the Trial of the Major War Criminals before the IMT. However, he did not back up his claim by giving precise details as to when and where Himmler made that alleged statement. He made lots of sensational claims without hard evidence, mainly to exculpate himself.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by 1999 » 04 Jul 2021 13:59

Hitler didn't want to kill all the Slavs but only a part of them.

Look at the demography : there are between 90 and 100 millions of Germans in Europe (Volksdeutsche included).
With the conquest of European USSR, Hitler would have -if I remember well- about 130 millions of Slavs.
General Plan Ost wanted to kill about 30 millions of Slavs and Jews. 130 millions less 30 millions equal 100 millions. Thanks to this exterminating process, the balance between Germans and Slavs would be reestablished.

Thus, Nazis wanted to kill only a part of the 130 millions of Slaves because of demographics reasons. I think that they didn't want to kill 130 millions of Slavs. You can argue that kill all these persons would create huge economic problems but 6 millions of Jews said the same thing and there are died. No, Nazis prefer restore the balance between there race and the sub-human hord and to have 100 millions of slaves in order to build a new millenium Reich inspired by Roman Empire.

But this plan was only for the future. Jews first ; war second ; slavs problem third. The large number of slavs killed by Germany can be explicated by the paranoïa and the terrible repression of the opposition to Nazi laws. Of course, in this case, ideology is not far away.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by manfredzhang » 06 Jul 2021 04:03

I wonder how did the Nazi separate Poles with Germans?

Manstein and Bach Zelewsky and many high ranking German generals had polish heritages.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by michael mills » 06 Jul 2021 11:23

General Plan Ost wanted to kill about 30 millions of Slavs and Jews.
No it did not.

The first draft of the Generalplan-Ost prepared in late 1941 by the RSHA is known from a lengthy commentary on it written in April 1942 by a senior official of Rosenberg's Ministry of the Occupied Eastern Territories, Erhard Wetzel. According to Wetzel, that draft proposed the removal of 31 million native inhabitants from regions in the east identified for German settlement, mainly in occupied Soviet territory but also in occupied Poland; that figure included the Jewish population of those areas.

Nothing in Wetzel's description of the RSHA draft hints at any extermination of the native population, in fact the very opposite; he criticises the 31 million figure as too low because it failed to take into account population growth during the 25-year removal period, meaning that the total to be removed would be more like 40 million, and would be logistically a much more difficult and costly task than envisaged. Obviously Wetzel's presumption of a growth of the native population is quite incompatible with a planned extermination of millions.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by wm » 06 Jul 2021 23:15

That's a weak argument, for the reason that the Wannsee Protocol only talked about "the evacuation of the Jews to the East," "to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East," too. And about "old-age ghettos" for the over 65 years old and Jewish war veterans.
But it seems "appropriate labor," and the ghettos never happened.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by michael mills » 07 Jul 2021 03:24

How then do you explain Wetzel's assumption that there would be a growth of the native population that was proposed to be removed from the regions identified for German settlement?

A population that is being progressively destroyed by exterminatory measures obviously cannot increase.

As Freud once famously remarked, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". In like measure, sometimes the word "evacuation" when used by German officials just meant the movement of people from one place to another, not killing them. Thus, when the protocol of the Wannsee Conference talked about "evacuation to the East", it simply meant transporting them into occupied Soviet territory where they would be used for labour, with the sexes separated so that they would not reproduce and would eventually die off naturally, which is what is meant by the term "natuerliche Verminderung", natural decrease, deaths exceeding births. Furthermore, in January 1942, before the Wannsee Conference, a series of messages had been sent from the RSHA in Berlin to the various German authorities in occupied Soviet territory, requiring them to indicate their capacity to accommodate Jews who were to be deported from Germany; that is a further indication that the proposed "evacuation to the East" was a real population movement, and not a euphemism for killing in extermination centres.

To be sure, Heydrich hinted at active killing of the remaining Jews at some unspecified time in the future, with the term "treated appropriately", which he presented as an alternative to releasing them, and justified on the basis that releasing the Jews would be too dangerous since they might form the basis of a Jewish recovery. However, that "appropriate treatment" in the distant future was quite clearly a separate proposition from the "evacuation to the East" which was to take place immediately. Accordingly, it would be a distortion of the obvious meaning of the terms used in the documents that make up the Generalplan-Ost to claim that those terms are simply a cover for mass killing.

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