Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

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daveshoup2MD
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 04 May 2021 03:53

LineDoggie wrote:
03 May 2021 23:28
Delta Tank wrote:
03 May 2021 14:48


Please name the three times MacArthur was surprised.



December 7th, 1941


1127 Local time 8 December 1941 when his air force was caught on the ground by the IJN and massacred in detail

25 November, 1950 when the Chicoms poured into his forces
Don't forget the initial NKPA invasion in 1950.

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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 04 May 2021 03:59

rcocean wrote:
03 May 2021 17:46
Its Marshall who finally got King to work with him and Arnold. Ike thought Admiral King was so abusive and wrong-headed he should have been shot for the good of the war effort. King didn't get along with Stimson or Forrestal either. I think its King's daughter who said "My father is even tempered. He's angry all the time."

King and Marshall were the two most effective senior military commanders in US history. Grant is close, but his authority and responsibilities were very different. Same for Washington, Pershing, and Scott.

“I can't spare this man–he fights.”

There's a reason FDR replaced Stark with King.

LineDoggie
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by LineDoggie » 04 May 2021 04:33

Delta Tank wrote:
04 May 2021 01:26


Do you really know the events that happened on 8 December 1941 in the Philippines?

Mike
USAFFE Air was massacred and he was overall commander and had vacillated in hitting Formosa

ergo he was surprised when his refueling air element was murdered on the ground

or are you going to try and claim the aircraft weren't shot to hell by the Japanese?
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

Delta Tank
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by Delta Tank » 04 May 2021 13:08

LineDoggie wrote:
04 May 2021 04:33
Delta Tank wrote:
04 May 2021 01:26


Do you really know the events that happened on 8 December 1941 in the Philippines?

Mike
USAFFE Air was massacred and he was overall commander and had vacillated in hitting Formosa

ergo he was surprised when his refueling air element was murdered on the ground

or are you going to try and claim the aircraft weren't shot to hell by the Japanese?
No, I am not, but I still don’t think you guys know the story. Hit Formosa? Where? Just bomb the island or should they try to hit a specific target? What could 36 unescorted B-17s do? Did we have accurate target information? Why did the Japanese attack on the airfields come so late. Should the US planes have landed and refueled? Was their an Air Component Commander? Squadron Commanders? What actions did they do or fail to do that caused this disaster?

Why didn’t President Roosevelt activate the Philippines Armed Forces in October of 1940? Could that lack of action by FDR May have been the kernel of a lot of disasters in the Philippines.

Mike

Delta Tank
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by Delta Tank » 04 May 2021 13:25

daveshoup2MD wrote:
04 May 2021 03:52
Delta Tank wrote:
03 May 2021 14:52
daveshoup2MD wrote:
02 May 2021 19:36
Given MacArthur's poor record in positions of high responsibility, his defeat on Luzon, his constant complaints about the Navy, and his inability to work with the SWPA Allies,
I could change a couple words and and your statement would fit Admiral Ernest King.

During the war General Marshall had to remind FDR that the US Army was not the enemy.

Mike
King was a great CNO and JCS member; strong advocate of Germany First; a master of joint and coalition warfare; and the most successful US naval senior commander in history ... MacArthur was surprised three times by three different enemies as a theater commander.
The reason why King “appeared” to support Germany First and support Marshall was he hated the British with a passion.

Didn’t King screw the Pooch on not implementing the convoy system on the East Coast in the beginning of the war? Our merchantmen were getting slaughtered to the point that an unknown Brigadier General named Eisenhower stated something along the lines “we won’t have enough ships left to go overseas to fight”

“In the diary, according to the newspaper, General Eisenhower in early 1942 described Adm. Ernest J. King, commander of the United States fleet as World War II began, as an “arbitrary, stubborn type” and a “mental bully.” One way to help win the war, General Eisenhower is reported to have written, was “to get someone to shoot King.” Admiral King became Chief of Naval Operations, the Navy's highest‐ranking officer.” Found this online here: https://www.nytimes.com/1979/09/19/arch ... in-42.html

Mike

rcocean
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by rcocean » 04 May 2021 14:40

Yes, Ike was very upset at King because of his rude, obnoxious behavior. But then King couldn't get along with anyone. The British hated him. Stimson and Forrestal disliked him. Marshall and Leahy got along with him because they had to, for the good of the USA. Even FDR came to dislike him.

King was also terrible at "Selling the Navy" in front of Congress or at making speeches. When he retired in 1946, he was almost completely forgotten unlike Marshall and MacArthur. Not many King Biographies.

rcocean
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by rcocean » 04 May 2021 14:55

King had some rather strange strategic ideas. The first was we had to take Formosa, bypass the Philippines, and seize a port on the China coast. Even when Nimitz explained we needed to neutralize the airfields around Manila to invade Formosa, King still objected to invading Leyte. He also had the odd idea that we needed invade France in 1944, because Stalin wasn't going to invade Eastern Europe but might stop at the 1939 USSR borders! You wonder if King understood that Stalin was a life-long Bolshevik revolutionary with the goal of world-wide revolution.

King also supported the invasion of Guam and Saipan but opposed landing on Iwo Jima, and had to be convinced we needed to attack Okinawa. It probably would've been better if Admiral Leahy had been called back from France and put in charge of the Navy after Pearl Harbor, and King given some fleet command. I think he was the victim of the peter principle and his ceiling was probably Atlantic Fleet Commander.

Delta Tank
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by Delta Tank » 04 May 2021 16:34

rcocean wrote:
04 May 2021 14:55
King had some rather strange strategic ideas. The first was we had to take Formosa, bypass the Philippines, and seize a port on the China coast. Even when Nimitz explained we needed to neutralize the airfields around Manila to invade Formosa, King still objected to invading Leyte. He also had the odd idea that we needed invade France in 1944, because Stalin wasn't going to invade Eastern Europe but might stop at the 1939 USSR borders! You wonder if King understood that Stalin was a life-long Bolshevik revolutionary with the goal of world-wide revolution.

King also supported the invasion of Guam and Saipan but opposed landing on Iwo Jima, and had to be convinced we needed to attack Okinawa. It probably would've been better if Admiral Leahy had been called back from France and put in charge of the Navy after Pearl Harbor, and King given some fleet command. I think he was the victim of the peter principle and his ceiling was probably Atlantic Fleet Commander.
There is one chapter in the book entitled “Command Decisions” that explains why we went to the Philippines instead of Formosa-China. That pop history that MacArthur convinced Roosevelt at Hawaii to invade the Philippines is a load of crap. Nimitz didn’t even believe in King’s plan, but being a loyal subordinate he tried to put lipstick on that pig.

Here is the chapter from Command Decisions: https://history.army.mil/books/70-7_21.htm

Mike

LineDoggie
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by LineDoggie » 04 May 2021 18:40

Delta Tank wrote:
04 May 2021 13:08
Hit Formosa? Where? Just bomb the island or should they try to hit a specific target? What could 36 unescorted B-17s do? Did we have accurate target information? Why did the Japanese attack on the airfields come so late. Should the US planes have landed and refueled? Was their an Air Component Commander? Squadron Commanders? What actions did they do or fail to do that caused this disaster?

Why didn’t President Roosevelt activate the Philippines Armed Forces in October of 1940? Could that lack of action by FDR May have been the kernel of a lot of disasters in the Philippines.

Mike
Where to bomb on Formosa? I dont know, maybe the Jap airfields that sent the planes that later wiped out the US Air element? surely you cant be that obtuse? you think now we had no intel on what facilities existed

Comes down to this WHO WAS USAFFE COMMANDER? Brereton or MACARTHUR ? who would give Brereton his Orders? a random Filipino or the Commander?

Why didnt FDR activate the Philippine armed forces in 1940? Maybe because we were at PEACE?
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

rcocean
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by rcocean » 04 May 2021 18:56

Thanks for the link. Its quite odd, with all the official histories online and available, that people peddle the same old nonsense. This isn't just average people its published authors. For example, Max Hastings in his book on the Pacific was STILL peddling the lie that FDR decided to invade the Philippines at Pearl Harbor in July 1944.

Regarding the July 1944 meeting. The funny thing is, Admiral King was in Pearl Harbor the week before FDR got there, and he deliberately left because he wasn't' invited. MacArthur, meanwhile, wasn't told what the conference was to be about. He wasn't even told that FDR was going to be there. He was told by Marshall to be in Honolulu during a certain day. Mac had to then board a plane and fly 24 hours to Hawaii. It wasn't till he stopped off on Canton island that he got a message from Nimitz saying FDR was arriving in Honolulu, and Nimitz wouldn't have time to meet him personally at the Air Field.

Nothing about the meeting was official. If FDR was really making a war changing strategic decision at the July 1944 Pearl Harbor Meeting it was an incredibly poor way to do it. No Chiefs of Staff - except Leahy. No supporting staff. No official position papers. Just Nimitz and an unprepared MacArthur yacking and pointing to a map. :lol:

Delta Tank
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by Delta Tank » 04 May 2021 19:38

LineDoggie wrote:
04 May 2021 18:40
Delta Tank wrote:
04 May 2021 13:08
Hit Formosa? Where? Just bomb the island or should they try to hit a specific target? What could 36 unescorted B-17s do? Did we have accurate target information? Why did the Japanese attack on the airfields come so late. Should the US planes have landed and refueled? Was their an Air Component Commander? Squadron Commanders? What actions did they do or fail to do that caused this disaster?

Why didn’t President Roosevelt activate the Philippines Armed Forces in October of 1940? Could that lack of action by FDR May have been the kernel of a lot of disasters in the Philippines.

Mike
Where to bomb on Formosa? I dont know, maybe the Jap airfields that sent the planes that later wiped out the US Air element? surely you cant be that obtuse? you think now we had no intel on what facilities existed

Comes down to this WHO WAS USAFFE COMMANDER? Brereton or MACARTHUR ? who would give Brereton his Orders? a random Filipino or the Commander?

Why didnt FDR activate the Philippine armed forces in 1940? Maybe because we were at PEACE?
See, you are making my point!! We did not have any target information!! We did not have the intelligence necessary to conduct a bombing mission. How many bombers to each airfield? How many airfields were there? Just go bomb an island!! What part of the island? It doesn’t matter just drop bombs!! How many planes did the Japanese have on Formosa? We did not know!! You don’t know what happened and why it happened!

Who was responsible for the air component? Who was responsible for guard post number 3? You can say the Commander is responsible for everything that happens or doesn’t happen, but no one can foresee everything, and what happened to the airfields that day was just plain bad luck.

FDR did not activate the Philippines, but he activated the reserves in the United States in October of 1940. Even though we were at peace we started the draft, federalize the National Guard, started building new military formations, but he did not activate the Philippines! Why?

Mike

Richard Anderson
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by Richard Anderson » 04 May 2021 20:51

LineDoggie wrote:
04 May 2021 18:40
Where to bomb on Formosa? I dont know, maybe the Jap airfields that sent the planes that later wiped out the US Air element? surely you cant be that obtuse? you think now we had no intel on what facilities existed
By my count there were six IJN and five IJA airfields scattered about Formosa, none of which the USAAF had much direct knowledge of. There were no photo-recon assets in the Philippines and due to international tensions, the War and Navy departments had been very careful not to cross international boundaries during the run-up to war. This is probably best illustrated by the routes taken by the B-17 flights to the Philippines.

On 26 November, MacArthur and Brereton were notified that two B-24 photo recon aircraft were to be placed at their disposal so that flights could begin observing Japanese positions in the Mandates, then Formosa, while the Navy began doing the same in Indochina. However, the aircraft, which were brand new, never arrived. It wasn't until the attack on Pearl that Brereton requested permission to use the B-17 in the Philippines to do armed reconnaissance to lay out bomb plots for the airfield targets, but MacArthur, in an excess of caution, refused until the first Japanese bombing attack on Philippine soil.

One ready aircraft took off for Formosa at 0800, but returned due to engine problems, while three others were prepared for the recon mission. Meanwhile, attention was fixed on the approaching Japanese invasion fleet and additional aircraft were sent off to locate them. After deducting those and aircraft out of commission, there were probably fewer than twenty ready to fly off into the unknown.
Comes down to this WHO WAS USAFFE COMMANDER? Brereton or MACARTHUR ? who would give Brereton his Orders? a random Filipino or the Commander?
See above. MacArthur felt constrained by the political climate - the warnings not to instigate a Japanese attack - and so acted very cautiously.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

rcocean
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by rcocean » 04 May 2021 21:10

Where to people get this nonsense. All this crap about MacArthur and bombing Formosa in the AM on Dec 8th. We had 17 B-17s at clark field. That's too few to have done ANYTHING. They'd never been on a bombing run, and they'd been in the Philippines for a short time. Even if you believe what Bretton wrote in his diary, the bombers would have found empty airfields. People have gone over this and over this, and people keep bringing it up! :lol:

Its all there in "They fought with what they Had" part of the official AF History. The target in AM was not the Formosa Air Fields but the harbor. And there were no recon photos or bomb phase lines. No one knew southern Formosa was covered with Fog and low clouds. Bretton had supposedly asked MacArthur in early December to conduct high level recon of Formosa, but MacArthur was under orders not to provoke hostilities and only allowed recon up to the international boundary.

Later the Japanese bombed Clark AF at 1240, while the Bombers were getting ready for a mission. The plan was to get photos and then bomb Formosa at the last hour of daylight, so the trip home could be made in darkness. But the word didn't get from the Radar Station to Clark Field and the Bombers and fighters were caught unprepared. 3 B-17s were later patched up but the rest of the 17-18 bombers were destroyed.
Last edited by rcocean on 04 May 2021 22:10, edited 2 times in total.

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 04 May 2021 22:01

Delta Tank wrote:
04 May 2021 13:25
daveshoup2MD wrote:
04 May 2021 03:52
Delta Tank wrote:
03 May 2021 14:52
daveshoup2MD wrote:
02 May 2021 19:36
Given MacArthur's poor record in positions of high responsibility, his defeat on Luzon, his constant complaints about the Navy, and his inability to work with the SWPA Allies,
I could change a couple words and and your statement would fit Admiral Ernest King.

During the war General Marshall had to remind FDR that the US Army was not the enemy.

Mike
King was a great CNO and JCS member; strong advocate of Germany First; a master of joint and coalition warfare; and the most successful US naval senior commander in history ... MacArthur was surprised three times by three different enemies as a theater commander.
The reason why King “appeared” to support Germany First and support Marshall was he hated the British with a passion.

Didn’t King screw the Pooch on not implementing the convoy system on the East Coast in the beginning of the war? Our merchantmen were getting slaughtered to the point that an unknown Brigadier General named Eisenhower stated something along the lines “we won’t have enough ships left to go overseas to fight”

“In the diary, according to the newspaper, General Eisenhower in early 1942 described Adm. Ernest J. King, commander of the United States fleet as World War II began, as an “arbitrary, stubborn type” and a “mental bully.” One way to help win the war, General Eisenhower is reported to have written, was “to get someone to shoot King.” Admiral King became Chief of Naval Operations, the Navy's highest‐ranking officer.” Found this online here: https://www.nytimes.com/1979/09/19/arch ... in-42.html

Mike
No, actually.

Go look up who was the CNO for most of Q1 in 1942, when PAUKENSCHLAG got underway, and ask yourself why that individual was replaced ... and who replaced him.

While you're at it, consider what EJK's actual command assignment for most of Q1, 1942 was, and consider the success or failure of the missions assigned to that command in the same period.

Then, consider the commands that were responsible for the ICS (or its precursors) in Western Hemisphere waters in 1942, and consider how many of those commands were not EJK's...

As far as diaries go, as Brooke's memoirs make clear, they are safe spaces for their authors to vent. Any relationship to historical truth is entirely coincidental.

Oh, speaking of Brooke, please provide any evidence EJK "hated the British with a passion."

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Re: Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 04 May 2021 22:06

rcocean wrote:
04 May 2021 14:40
Yes, Ike was very upset at King because of his rude, obnoxious behavior. But then King couldn't get along with anyone. The British hated him. Stimson and Forrestal disliked him. Marshall and Leahy got along with him because they had to, for the good of the USA. Even FDR came to dislike him.

King was also terrible at "Selling the Navy" in front of Congress or at making speeches. When he retired in 1946, he was almost completely forgotten unlike Marshall and MacArthur. Not many King Biographies.
Oh, grown men who have made the military their careers are "rude" - heavens, forfend.

Try reading Buell.

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