Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

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henryk
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Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#1

Post by henryk » 07 May 2021, 20:31

https://dailypopulous.com/2021-05-07-ni ... legal.html
Putin Looks to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal
Authored by newsweek.com and submitted by Twoweekswithpay
The Daily Populous Friday May 7th, 2021 day edition

Russian legislators are looking to ban people from likening the behavior of the Soviet Army and Joseph Stalin to the actions of Nazi soldiers and Adolf Hitler. Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, instructed the bill to be introduced after a meeting of the Presidential Council for Culture and Arts in October. Opponents of the legislation have criticized it for infringing on free speech. However, the bill's backers argue it's not about cracking down on what people say but about recognizing Russia's contribution to Hitler's downfall.

"The Soviet army is a liberator, and therefore a benefactor of Europe," Elena Yampolskaya, the chair of the Committee on Culture, said in a statement. "It is possible and necessary to discuss any specific situations, facts, documents. Just not forgetting that the Soviet Union, the Russian people fought the main struggle against the universal evil of Nazism."

Russia's involvement in World War II is a complicated story that puts the country on both the Axis and Allied sides. For nearly two years, Russia collaborated with Germany as both forces moved through Eastern Europe, bringing with them death, destruction, brutal occupation, and the shipping of people away to forced labor and concentration camps. However, after Germany invaded Russia in 1941, the Nazi regime became an enemy of Russia as its army joined the fight against Hitler. Russia's winter and the army's relentlessness during the Battle of Stalingrad delivered a heavy blow to Hitler's forces and is considered by many historians to be a major turning point in the war in favor of the Allied forces.

The Soviet army was also responsible for liberating Warsaw, Krakow and Auschwitz, the most infamous Nazi concentration camp where more than a million people were killed. While Russia helped bring release to those suffering in concentration camps at the hands of the Nazis, its leader Stalin is considered one of the most ruthless figures in history. He created the Gulag, a forced labor camp system that imprisoned about 18 million people and subjected them to brutal conditions. After the war, he claimed swaths of Europe for his own and lowered an "iron curtain" down, blocking East Berlin off from the world and starting the Cold War.

Putin has been trying to crack down on criticism of Russia's actions during World War II for years. In 2014, he signed a law that made distorting the Soviet Union's role a criminal offense punishable by up to five years in prison. "It is our duty to defend the truth about the victory; otherwise what shall we say to our children if a lie, like a disease, spreads all over the world?" Putin said in a speech in January 2020. "We must set facts against outrageous lies and attempts to distort history ... This work is our duty as a winning country and our responsibility to the future generations."

Mark Kramer, director of the Cold War Studies Project at Harvard's Davis Center, acknowledged in 2020 that the heroism of the Soviet soldiers is "undeniable" but said the "much darker side of the Soviet war effort" is also unavoidable. He called it "unfortunate" that Russia only tolerates "glorious images and speeches" and said that a "more even-handed discussion" would be in the nation's best interest.

The bill, which was published in the State Duma's records on Wednesday, blamed the media, including publications in Russia, for making "derogatory" statements about the Soviet Union's role in World War II. It would forbid people from publicly comparing actions of the USSR's military and leaders to those of the Nazi's leadership, including in the media and on the internet.

Its authors said the goal was to put a legislative barrier between "obvious insults to our grandfathers and great-grandfathers," while "preserving space for historical research" and scientific discussions, according to a translation of the bill. "The family has its black sheep. Can particulars discredit the whole? Never. Good remains good, evil remains evil, " Yampolskaya said in a statement.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 May 2021, 04:39

But they can still equate Putin and his occupation of Crimea and the Donetsk region to Hitler and the Germans in Danzig and the Polish Corridor?

Sid


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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#3

Post by wwilson » 08 May 2021, 10:08

The problem with the notion of "even handed discussion" is that it too often becomes an instrument with which the "offending nation" is struck in order to achieve the political and economic goals of other countries that have nothing to do with the issues specific to the war.

Yeah, that is an opinion.

Putin is well aware that, at the level of international interaction, such discussions only take place as an aspect of diplomacy. Thus, while it seems easy for people like us to discuss these issues as individuals of various countries, we don't have the 'opportunity' to make subtle errors that result in years of problems for an entire country.

The other issue is illustrated by Yampolskaya's statement about good and evil. Both of those are judged in the eye of the beholder.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#4

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 May 2021, 11:01

Perhaps the answer is not to become an "offending nation" in the first place!

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#5

Post by wm » 08 May 2021, 11:24

Like Hitler, Stalin was a hard-working man.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#6

Post by wwilson » 08 May 2021, 12:26

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 May 2021, 11:01
Perhaps the answer is not to become an "offending nation" in the first place!

Cheers,

Sid.
Sid,

LOL. Yeah, but we get back to the original challenge of whose perception is valid in determining what is offensive and what is not.

These kind of issues remind me of looking at battles, from the perspective of both combatants. Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading about the same battle.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#7

Post by wwilson » 08 May 2021, 12:34

wm wrote:
08 May 2021, 11:24
Like Hitler, Stalin was a hard-working man.
wm,

A bit of sour humor in the USA about Hitler goes, "Yeah, but he liked dogs. There must have been something good about him!"

Indeed. No doubt, his fellow soldiers in the regiment he served with in the First World War, at that time, saw him in a far different light than the people whose countries were invaded by his armies in the Second World War.

(My opinion) -- even an ordinary man's life cannot be reduced to a one-word description. For those men who impacted world history, probably impossible to do so.

This goes back to my earlier comment about the perceptions of individuals who are not state actors. It is easy, emotionally satisfying, and perhaps even well thought out, to issue a ringing condemnation of another person. But, at the state level, the "rules" are quite different and the stakes are far greater. Most of what states agree to among themselves boils down to, "you do this for me, and I do this for you".

Cheers

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#8

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 May 2021, 13:28

Hi wwilson,

So all combatants are equal as far as you are concerned?

Sid

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#9

Post by wm » 08 May 2021, 14:09

Hitler's associates saw him in a far different light too.
There are many "that man can't be touched (despite being unsuitable), Hitler is loyal to him (for the sake of the old times),
or "I saw tears in his eyes" in their diaries.
Stalin wasn't loyal to anyone and I suppose didn't cry.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#10

Post by wwilson » 08 May 2021, 15:18

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 May 2021, 13:28
Hi wwilson,

So all combatants are equal as far as you are concerned?

Sid
Sid,

As far as I am concerned, my reply would be 'no'. But my take is that of a private citizen with no authority over, or, responsibility for, state-level affairs. Putin, in his role as leader of Russia, is in a vastly different situation. Thus my comment on differing perspectives. BTW, this reply is so worded with the understanding that by 'combatant', you mean a state, country, region, etc., and not the immediacy of individual combatants on a battlefield.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#11

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 May 2021, 08:17

Hi wwilson,

Having different perspectives doesn't mean all are equally valid, or even have any validity at all.

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#12

Post by wwilson » 09 May 2021, 09:21

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 May 2021, 08:17
Hi wwilson,

Having different perspectives doesn't mean all are equally valid, or even have any validity at all.

Cheers,

Sid
Hi Sid

That is true. But it begs a question. Who determines what is valid? That is pertinent in situations in which peer-level entities (states) hold different perceptions of events.

Cheers

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#13

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 May 2021, 10:53

Hi wwilson,

However many perceptions of an event there are, only one thing actually happened.

Only one (or none) of us can be right.

Shutting down discussion of an issue, as Putin appears to be doing in this case, deprives the Russian people of some of the tools they need to establish an historically accurate perception of their own history (again). And history tends to help form future actions.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#14

Post by wwilson » 09 May 2021, 12:43

Hi Sid,

Ah. But how 'right' is it for other countries to 'explore' the history of a country they are politically targeting with the objective of instigating unrest in that country?

This is where an academic approach to the question fails. 1- Putin is not an ordinary Russian. He is the leader of the Russian Federation and is empowered (whether outsiders like the Russian system of government is immaterial) to make decisions to protect the Russian Federation. 2- The activities of countries, when seeking influence in the affairs of another country, are typically ruthless in concept and execution.

I do not believe any push in Russia to equate the actions of the Soviet Union with Nazi Germany was a home-grown political phenomenon. It sounds like an attempt to reduce the negotiating power of the Russian state by advancing the notion that morally, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were equally bankrupt, and therefore, Russia has no recourse to rebuttal based in morality.

Now consider how Putin would view such a situation. As a national leader, he would never agree to such a proposition. So, he shuts discussion of it down. Not much to like there?

Other states, faced with similar attempts at defamation of the entire country, may be able to rely upon robust legal systems to remedy such attempts at manipulation by other countries. Well, I also consider the state of the law in Russia. It is applied with considerably more arbitrariness there than in many countries of the West. That is the consequence of heavy-handed state control for a much longer time than Putin has even been alive. Yet, it is what Putin has to work with, and so instead, he issues decrees.

Yes, those individual Russians who follow these matters will lose access to information. But Russia overall may become somewhat insulated from that specific kind of manipulation.

As far as 'future actions' go, yes, things will happen. The reverberations of the 1917 revolution continue.

Cheers

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#15

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 May 2021, 15:31

Hi wwilson,

You ask, "Ah. But how 'right' is it for other countries to 'explore' the history of a country they are politically targeting with the objective of instigating unrest in that country?" Entirely right. If a country doesn't want to be suddenly embarrassed by its past, it should address its own history honestly, thereby removing it as a stick with which it could be beaten. Then it can't be successfully ambushed by its own past.

Who is doing this, as a matter of interest? This seems to be entirely an internal Russian thing.

You post, "1- Putin is not an ordinary Russian. He is the leader of the Russian Federation and is empowered (whether outsiders like the Russian system of government is immaterial) to make decisions to protect the Russian Federation." Yup. So? The fact that Putin can do something does mean (1) that he should do so or (2) that it is in the interests of Russia or Russians.

You post, "I do not believe any push in Russia to equate the actions of the Soviet Union with Nazi Germany was a home-grown political phenomenon." Your evidence for this is.....?

You post, "It sounds like an attempt to reduce the negotiating power of the Russian state by advancing the notion that morally, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were equally bankrupt, and therefore, Russia has no recourse to rebuttal based in morality." I wouldn't, personally put the USSR in quite the same category as Nazi Germany. However, beyond good theoretical intentions, in practice it certainly didn't occupy very much of the moral high ground during its existence, so it would be difficult to mount any "rebuttal based on morality" . What bits of the moral high ground do you suggest the USSR occupied that might be leveraged to its advantage in the future?

You post, "Now consider how Putin would view such a situation. As a national leader, he would never agree to such a proposition. So, he shuts discussion of it down. Not much to like there?" I don't have to consider Putin's view if it diverges from openness on the facts and the right to publicly debate them. It would appear to be his intention to treat the Russian people like mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed on sh1t! If this didn't impact on Russia's neighbours, it would just be a private Russian grief, but it does and is very threatening to them. Putin's forces currently stand on the territory of four of the Christian, former SSRs of the Soviet Union, in three cases without being invited.

You post, "Other states, faced with similar attempts at defamation of the entire country, may be able to rely upon robust legal systems to remedy such attempts at manipulation by other countries." Which "other states"? What "manipulation"? What "defamation"?

How can open discussion of the facts defame anybody, let alone an entire country if that fame is justified? If it is demonstrable that the USSR is not equatable to the Nazi Germany, then it should be a simple matter to demonstrate this. My suspicion is that there are too many parallels with Nazi Germany for this to be a safe and easy route to follow and so the preferred option is to shut down debate altogether.

I should point out that the USSR was not the same country as today's Russia. Nor was Czarist Russia. If the current Russian Federation wants to reclaim Russia's heritage as its own, it might like to start by paying off Czarist Russia's international debts. That would empirically demonstrate its reclamation of Russia's past and continuity with it.

"Well, I also consider the state of the law in Russia. It is applied with considerably more arbitrariness there than in many countries of the West. That is the consequence of heavy-handed state control for a much longer time than Putin has even been alive. Yet, it is what Putin has to work with, and so instead, he issues decrees." Putin is an autocratic head of government with near dictatorial powers. He has been in power for over twenty years already and has altered the constitution to keep himself there for perhaps decades to come. A majority of Russia's practicing legal profession today probably began work after Putin came to power and some would be half way through their careers by now.

How long can Putin go on blaming the past for inadequacies in his own regime?

After over two decades of his rule, Russia's population is again falling, despite the return of millions of Russians from the "near abroad". Russians seem very patriotic, yet a high proportion of educated young Russians want to leave. When they do leave they apparently repatriate less money to Russia than Georgian expatriates send back to tiny Georgia!

Russia has more natural resources than any other country, yet exports almost no manufactured products beyond armaments. Its people are often highly educated and skilled, yet have a life expectancy slightly below those of Mexico, Morocco or Malaysia.

This law is the least of Russia's internally generated problems.

Cheers,

Sid.

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