Reach of NGFS Normandy

Discussions on WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic.
User avatar
Kingfish
Member
Posts: 3087
Joined: 05 Jun 2003 16:22
Location: USA

Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by Kingfish » 27 May 2021 23:52

Is Op Windsor the furthest inland that NGFS was able to reach in Normandy?
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 3134
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 17:14
Location: London

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by Sheldrake » 28 May 2021 08:52

NGS played a significant part in the battle for Tilly sur Seulles
The fireplan for Op Jupiter (10 July 1944) included HMS Rodney with 9 x 16-inch, Roberts with 2 x 15-inch and Belfast with 12 x 6-inch guns

During Op Goodwood (18 July 1944) HMS Roberts, Enterprise and Mauritius carried out a counter-battery programme controlled by HQ 4th AGRA.

There is no mention of warships in the fireplans for Op Spring or Pomegranate. So by this time the front line must have been beyond the range of NGS.

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 4781
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by OpanaPointer » 28 May 2021 11:22

Barefoot post:

The absolute max range would be that of the battleships. You then deduct the distance from the beach to the fathomline the BBs operated on.

Some references:

https://worldwar2navies.wordpress.com/2 ... -day-1944/

https://www.historyonthenet.com/naval-artillery

And best for last: https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/re ... _Guns.html
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 8763
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 28 May 2021 15:45

I don't have information on the quantities of ammunition fired. My view has been the cruiser guns would be the common limit of the NGFS with the BB fires a low occurrence exception.

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 4781
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by OpanaPointer » 28 May 2021 19:25

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
28 May 2021 15:45
I don't have information on the quantities of ammunition fired. My view has been the cruiser guns would be the common limit of the NGFS with the BB fires a low occurrence exception.
von Rundstedt and Rommel both made entries in the KTBs about the difficulty of moving troops under battleship gunfire.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 4781
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by OpanaPointer » 28 May 2021 19:27

On the other foot a DD was requested to take out a church steeple that was suspected of being a FAO post. The legend says one shot, the record says seven, either is darn good shootin', partner.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 3134
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 17:14
Location: London

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by Sheldrake » 29 May 2021 00:26

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
28 May 2021 15:45
I don't have information on the quantities of ammunition fired. My view has been the cruiser guns would be the common limit of the NGFS with the BB fires a low occurrence exception.
Here are the details of the NGS fire for Op Charnwood

The warships were to fire from Jul 7 onwards as follows:
HMS Rodney (100 rds) Pt 64 pm 7 Jul and at H-4 for 40 mins each
HMS Roberts (100 rds) Buron pm 7 Jul and at H-2 for 40 mins each
La Folie from H-2 to H+2½
HMS Emerald CB east of R Orne under command 51 Div
HMS Belfast CB west of R Orne under command Comd 4 AGRA

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 8763
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 29 May 2021 00:54

OpanaPointer wrote:
28 May 2021 19:25
...
von Rundstedt and Rommel both made entries in the KTBs about the difficulty of moving troops under battleship gunfire.
Sort of like every German tank was a Tiger to the Yank. The declining number of staff officer writing those reports Rommel & Rundsteadt read were not wasting a lot of time determining the exact caliber of rounds that just drove a grenadier company to ground and flipped their AT gun over.

Reaching back to my fire planning training, for most applications I prefer a cruiser capable of rapid fire with 6" cannon. There are moments a 14" or 15" projective is best, but generally a cruisers 6" guns give you a high volume & better effect on target in that first critical 30 seconds of rounds on target.
OpanaPointer wrote:
28 May 2021 19:27
On the other foot a DD was requested to take out a church steeple that was suspected of being a FAO post. The legend says one shot, the record says seven, either is darn good shootin', partner.
Seven rounds were fired, one hit the building. The back story is the fire mission was initiated at a senior HQ, either the 2d ID or one of the infantry regiments. The NGF observer spotting the mission was to distant to see that one of the rifle companies had already evicted the enemy from the ground around the church, & the HQ was not up to date on events of the last 20 minutes.

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 8763
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 29 May 2021 00:58

Sheldrake wrote:
29 May 2021 00:26
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
28 May 2021 15:45
I don't have information on the quantities of ammunition fired. My view has been the cruiser guns would be the common limit of the NGFS with the BB fires a low occurrence exception.
Here are the details of the NGS fire for Op Charnwood

The warships were to fire from Jul 7 onwards as follows:
HMS Rodney (100 rds) Pt 64 pm 7 Jul and at H-4 for 40 mins each
HMS Roberts (100 rds) Buron pm 7 Jul and at H-2 for 40 mins each
La Folie from H-2 to H+2½
HMS Emerald CB east of R Orne under command 51 Div
HMS Belfast CB west of R Orne under command Comd 4 AGRA
Thanks. Thats a good start. I'll have to search out the number of rounds each ship carried. There is also the question of how the secondary batteries of the Rodney were used.

EwenS
Member
Posts: 216
Joined: 04 May 2020 11:37
Location: Scotland

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by EwenS » 29 May 2021 12:59

You will find some information, some of it more detailed than in other cases, in the ship histories here.
http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-aContents.htm

Some range information on the various naval guns available here.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.php

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 4781
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by OpanaPointer » 29 May 2021 12:59

Carl, I suspect both officers could tell the difference between a 5" round and a 14" round. I know a 16" was more ... impactful ... when they detonated back in the day.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 4781
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by OpanaPointer » 29 May 2021 13:00

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
28 May 2021 15:45
I don't have information on the quantities of ammunition fired. My view has been the cruiser guns would be the common limit of the NGFS with the BB fires a low occurrence exception.
The BBs dueled with shore batteries south of the landing zone a bit later on.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 2636
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 29 May 2021 21:06

OpanaPointer wrote:
29 May 2021 12:59
Carl, I suspect both officers could tell the difference between a 5" round and a 14" round. I know a 16" was more ... impactful ... when they detonated back in the day.
Possibly, but I don’t suppose either were too close when those rounds landed.

Regards

Tom

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 4781
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by OpanaPointer » 29 May 2021 22:35

One blew my hat off. Another blew me into the hospital. Close enough.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

Delta Tank
Member
Posts: 2354
Joined: 16 Aug 2004 01:51
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Reach of NGFS Normandy

Post by Delta Tank » 30 May 2021 01:31

OpanaPointer wrote:
28 May 2021 19:27
On the other foot a DD was requested to take out a church steeple that was suspected of being a FAO post. The legend says one shot, the record says seven, either is darn good shootin', partner.
Where was this Church steeple?

Mike

Return to “WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic”