Rundstedt's central reserve

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Gooner1
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#181

Post by Gooner1 » 08 Jun 2021, 13:14

Michael Kenny wrote:
08 Jun 2021, 03:14
Tooze has written about this type of dinosaur. Those brought up on the the post war love-in with the German Army and who continue to desperately cling to the D'Este/Hastings/Keegan skewed version of reality.

https://mk0adamtoozept2ql1eh.kinstacdn. ... ar-1-2.pdf
This from Alexander Baron 'From the City, From the Plough', a novel but one written by a veteran (albeit in the Pioneer Corps in Normandy) and first published in1948.

"The counter-attacks came in one after another. Panzer grenadiers came creeping like cats through the corn and swarming in from the surrounding woods. A forward platoon was overrun. A field was lost. A company was forced out of a village, went stumbling forward to win it again, huddled in the ruins under ceaseless mortar fire, was driven out and won it back once more. The frightened country boys were facing troops who, man for man, were craftier and better trained, who had been reared as warriors; they were outfought at every turn; but they managed, heaven only knew how they managed, to stay where they were."

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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#182

Post by Cult Icon » 08 Jun 2021, 15:28

Richard Anderson wrote:
02 Jun 2021, 17:55
Juan G. C. wrote:
01 Jun 2021, 18:04
Cult Icon wrote:
01 Jun 2021, 14:38
Wouldn't much of what historically happened with troop dispositions be irrelevant if there were say, 6 more Pz divisions in the theater to pollinate and the rest being KW 1 ?
In this case I think it is relevant, because, if the decisión to deploy these two divisions there was taken by Geyr von Schweppenburg or von Rundstedt, then it is probable that that would have been their position in this TL.
Sorry, but quibbling over the decision of where to place a division and fantasizing the arrival of "say, 6 more Pz divisions in the theater" simply ignores the reality that Germany was incapable of doing so. Nor would a "better decision" on the Ostfront in early 1944 do anything to change that, since, in fact, WRT tanks and StuG, the results of the 1st quarter losses in 1944 were better than should have been expected rather than worse. Germany lost just 880 of its "main battle tanks" (Pz 38t, Pz III, Pz IV, and Panther) then, compared to 1,277 in the previous quarter and 1,330 in 3Q43. 3Q44 was also worse, with 1,172 lost, while 3Q44 and its 2,015 losses was the worst yet. Deliveries to units February-April were 1,137, so actually were slightly exceeding losses...except the Wehrmacht was still trying to catch up from previous years losses and many divisions on the Ostfront were operating at half strength. In essence, 32 Panzer divisions, each requiring 180 Panzer IV and Panther, 5,760 in total, but existing with 2,919, including operational, non-operational, and those in training establishments. Magically transposing "say, 6 more Pz divisions in the theater" or getting a "better result" in the 1Q44 would not change that.
Your argument does not disprove if there could be "6 more Pz divisions in the theater". Things can progress entirely differently than you imagine it to be. The order to initiate the buildup in the West occurred in late 1943 even though the Eastern front, particularly Army Group South, was falling apart and retreating. A larger reserve, at the expense of the Eastern Front, could be allocated particularly due to the perceived shortfall in defensive needs. Look to the Buddha: "All arising come from complex causes and conditions". In this perspective, all "what-ifs" are inherently farcical as well as arguments designed to refute them :lol:

In any case, I was working out the issue of compression (the clique here finds this very offensive :lol: ) and what it would look like, tactically, not a victory in the West.


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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#183

Post by Cult Icon » 08 Jun 2021, 15:48

Gooner1 wrote:
08 Jun 2021, 12:58

Yet the Allies achieved much from Q3/42 and the Germans little.
In relation to mission-based-orders, and not the rest of Shieldrake's comment: In the event of a counteroffensive, what would happen is that the German Pz divisions would receive "mission based orders", then they would apply the tactics they see appropriate unless opposed to strictly. It was a military culture of sorts.

This command philosophy of course does not work well all the time and can be entirely inappropriate. It resembles (without getting into politics): the rhetoric of libertarianism vs socialism, who ergo, is the rhetoric of centralization vs. decentralization. In 44' German army lean towards being decentralized at the division level and below, centralized above.

I recently read an account of such an action. In Operation NORDWIND, lower tactical commanders (battalion and aides) did not agree with the prescriptive orders to assault Wingen-sur-moder through the narrow, direct road as they saw an multi-echelon American defense forming. They issued their disagreement and were approved. What subsequently happened was they infiltrated, via a long and circuitous route, into the forests and hills and surprised and seized the town, occupied by some 350 American troops, mostly of command and services.
Last edited by Cult Icon on 08 Jun 2021, 16:27, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#184

Post by Cult Icon » 08 Jun 2021, 16:02

Gooner1 wrote:
08 Jun 2021, 13:14

"The counter-attacks came in one after another. Panzer grenadiers came creeping like cats through the corn and swarming in from the surrounding woods. A forward platoon was overrun. A field was lost. A company was forced out of a village, went stumbling forward to win it again, huddled in the ruins under ceaseless mortar fire, was driven out and won it back once more. The frightened country boys were facing troops who, man for man, were craftier and better trained, who had been reared as warriors; they were outfought at every turn; but they managed, heaven only knew how they managed, to stay where they were."
Please explain to me why British accounts have prose like this- sounds like the veteran is projecting a trope of sorts from his own culture, stemming from the popular perception of the working class tommy of the great war. Simple minded, loyal, and long-suffering... as opposed to the oppressive elitists who lead them into war and tragedy.

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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#185

Post by Cult Icon » 08 Jun 2021, 17:09

In addition to this, there is the other popular archetype that can be seen the film "Zulu". Also, "A Bridge too far (1977)" projects these cultural tropes of the stoic stiff upper lip...also an offshoot of the Victorian era and educational processes of that time that emphasized what was expected of men.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Li65P_3lvM

The umbrella officer, dying, later explains that he holds the umbrella because he didn't want to be confused for not being an Englishman :lol: I wonder, does this translate to invincibility in the defense?

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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#186

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Jun 2021, 17:53

Cult Icon wrote:
08 Jun 2021, 17:09


The umbrella officer, dying, later explains that he holds the umbrella because he didn't want to be confused for not being an Englishman I wonder, does this translate to invincibility in the defense?
No. It just means they prefer not to get wet.
brolly.jpg

Better known as a brolly.
and to shoot your fox (another trope?) I give you.........................
uber-brolly.jpg

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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#187

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Jun 2021, 18:08

Cult Icon wrote:
08 Jun 2021, 17:09
In addition to this, there is the other popular archetype that can be seen the film "Zulu". Also, "A Bridge too far (1977)" projects these cultural tropes of the stoic stiff upper lip...
........or the chipper cockney type. If the latter were to be cast in one of the old 'we saved your ass' Hollywood films I dare say Dick van Dyke would get that part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5r622_mlsw
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 08 Jun 2021, 18:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#188

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Jun 2021, 18:13

Cult Icon wrote:
08 Jun 2021, 16:02


Please explain to me why British accounts have prose like this-
Because it comes across better than heroic tales of how you were 'never beaten in a fair fight' and knocked out countless tanks but always ended up retreating. In short its more believable.

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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#189

Post by Richard Anderson » 08 Jun 2021, 18:16

Cult Icon wrote:
08 Jun 2021, 15:28
Your argument does not disprove if there could be "6 more Pz divisions in the theater".
Of course it does not. You cannot prove or disprove an event which never happened. However, it does rather raise the question of what condition those divisions would be in and what condition the southern front in the east would be like if such an action was undertaken.

By 1 June 1944, there were 20 Panzer divisions on the Ostfront, including 9. and 10. SS (in addition, 25. Panzer was fragmented with parts in Hungary, Germany, and Denmark). When the two SS divisions returned, they left the 18 divisions still there with 1,192 operational Panzer, 66.2 each on average, leaving them at one-third strength. Under the usual circumstance as followed by the Heer, the additional four divisions would leave most of its Panzer behind distributed to other divisions. So now we have 1,192 operational Panzer shared between 14 divisions, 85.1 each. You've increased the strength of those divisions to almost half, but reduced the number of maneuver units and it can only come from the south - HG-N had a single division and HG-M three, so there could only be 10 divisions in HG-NU and HG-SU, rather than the historical 9 in NU (not including 9. and 10. SS) and 5 in SU.

Positing a better outcome to the battles January-April 1944 by reducing the primary maneuver elements in the critical southern sector by 37.5 percent is a novel notion to say the least.

The next question of course is where the 732-odd Panzer required to fill up the shells of the four additional divisions sent west come from? Notably, the 11 Panzer divisions (including 9. and 10. SS) had only 1,244 tanks by 15 June, giving them an average of 113.1 each, stronger than in the east, but now you want 15 divisions there, drawing from the same Panzer pool, so 82.9 each, making them now weaker than those in the east. Of course complicating that is that the Panzer strength actually includes 250 Panthers, operational and non-operational, held by the units training at – Mailly-le-Camp, many of which were intended for units in the east.

Essentially you are doing what the Germans did, juggling a finite resource and robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#190

Post by Richard Anderson » 08 Jun 2021, 18:22

Cult Icon wrote:
08 Jun 2021, 17:09
The umbrella officer, dying, later explains that he holds the umbrella because he didn't want to be confused for not being an Englishman :lol: I wonder, does this translate to invincibility in the defense?
I wonder, but you do realize Major Tatham-Warter was a real person, who really did that? Oh, except for the dying part, since he died in 1993. He was not a figment of an inveterate what-iffers imagination.

Sometimes it helps if your imaginary worldview has some basis in reality, however small.
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#191

Post by Cult Icon » 08 Jun 2021, 22:33

Juan's scenario isn't even the most aggressive one. The more aggressive versions of Juan's OPs were the Alt history topics that want Hitler/OKW to not pursue Op Citadel and then pursue a policy of mobile defense. Mobile defense would involve a lot of organized retreating and readjustment of defense lines to free up the maximum in assault reserves and minimize attrition. This would have big and complex political ramifications as well, extending all year. (The idea that the dictator would refuse to launch an offensive in the year 1943. )

The Wehrmacht was painstakingly rebuilt and peaked in July 43. yet in July-August the Red Army destroyed the fruits of the labor with sequential offensives. AGS became weak again. The cream of the Pz troops were destroyed once over in little over two months. Then another "set"/wave of Pz troops were destroyed roughly from Oct 43- April 44. The consequences of such losses were severe- both in the forces fielded and their qualities leading to the third wave in one year- France and at least 7 strong ones (off the top of my head) in the East ( GD, 4.Pz, 19.Pz, HG Pz, 3.SS, 5.SS, 5.Pz) and a smaller concentration in Italy.

Dramatically reduce the losses of the first and second waves and the fighting value of the third wave becomes very different. The German infantry arm, which received reinforcements, also never recovered from its July-August 43 beating. It is definitely harder to do a Pro-German Alt history scenario for both Overlord and Bagration, at least I haven't seen anyone attempt it.

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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#192

Post by Cult Icon » 09 Jun 2021, 03:33

Cult Icon wrote:
31 May 2021, 03:55
Having no interest elsewhere I leave the rest to the clique and ask them to develop a pro-Axis scenario...... :lol:
No takers to this fundamental What-if on Axis History forum ? Why am I not surprised?

Existential questions need to be asked of them :lol:

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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#193

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 09 Jun 2021, 04:07

Cult Icon wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 03:33
Cult Icon wrote:
31 May 2021, 03:55
Having no interest elsewhere I leave the rest to the clique and ask them to develop a pro-Axis scenario...... :lol:
No takers to this fundamental What-if on Axis History forum ? Why am I not surprised?

Existential questions need to be asked :lol:
Doing a good What-if takes work, analytical acuity, imagination. Much easier never to try, to sit back and criticize via formula and cliché ("hand-waive!", "ASB!", fantasy), confident that in the echo chamber of AHF your replies will be well-received regardless of their merit.
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#194

Post by Richard Anderson » 09 Jun 2021, 05:26

Cult Icon wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 03:33
No takers to this fundamental What-if on Axis History forum ? Why am I not surprised?
But you do it so well... :roll:
Existential questions need to be asked of them :lol:
Like, why is there air? :roll:
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#195

Post by Cult Icon » 09 Jun 2021, 09:02

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 04:07
Doing a good What-if takes work, analytical acuity, imagination. Much easier never to try, to sit back and criticize via formula and cliché ("hand-waive!", "ASB!", fantasy), confident that in the echo chamber of AHF your replies will be well-received regardless of their merit.
Agreed. Besides this I realized the scam years ago- they can post up to 1300 posts in this subforum and not post a single pro-Axis what-if. They maliciously pass the time off of other people's backs and their biased responses should be disregarded accordingly. The area of free inquiry is more appropriate to the spirit of what-if.

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