Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

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manfredzhang
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by manfredzhang » 10 Jun 2021 15:42

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 14:44
Hi Manfredzhang,

I would suggest that a majority of "Don't knows" is a meaningful conclusion in its own right.

If people don't know, it is useful to know this.

Cheers,

Sid.
yeah right. let's say we had a poll of whether Chinese like Japanese. 5% say yes, 5% say No. 90% don't know.
One can draw either conclusion that 95% Chinese don't hate Japanese or 95% Chinese don't like Japanese. See how meaningful the poll result is.

gebhk
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by gebhk » 10 Jun 2021 15:59

let's say we had a poll of whether Chinese like Japanese. 5% say yes, 5% say No. 90% don't know.
Let's not. Let's wait till someone comes up with an actual opinion poll.
One can draw either conclusion that 95% Chinese don't hate Japanese or 95% Chinese don't like Japanese.
Or one can refrain from drawing any conclusions other than that the majority had no opinion either way or were indifferent. In itself a very useful and meaningful piece of information.

manfredzhang
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by manfredzhang » 10 Jun 2021 16:18

gebhk wrote:
10 Jun 2021 15:59
let's say we had a poll of whether Chinese like Japanese. 5% say yes, 5% say No. 90% don't know.
Let's not. Let's wait till someone comes up with an actual opinion poll.
One can draw either conclusion that 95% Chinese don't hate Japanese or 95% Chinese don't like Japanese.
Or one can refrain from drawing any conclusions other than that the majority had no opinion either way or were indifferent. In itself a very useful and meaningful piece of information.
You don’t have to wait.

Of the 30k ish Chinese resided in Japan (students inclusive) before the second Sino-Japanese conflicts, about half chose to go back to China (most of them students), while the remaining (who lived and worked in Japan as permanent residents) half chose to stay. I will say the majority of the Chinese living in Japan were literates and should be a good sample mimic the literates’ opinion.
Sure not all the Chinese chose to return hated Japan and not all the Chinese chose to stay liked Japan. But one can largely draw the line here. For the literates who had a solid understanding of the lives in Japan and China. It’s about half half. And 90% illiteracy is a known fact.
So that poll result I posted above is nothing from imagination but rather a pretty close proxy to reality.
Sure you can have no opinion. Then I will go back to the fundamentals. Had we already known 90% of the population were illiterate and could not produce a meaningful poll result. What’s the purpose to waste money?

Peter89
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by Peter89 » 10 Jun 2021 17:23

While I put less emphasis on the public opinion (because most of the public opinion were rooted in limited informations), I seriously doubt that China, the Middle Kingdom, the center of the universe, etc. would actually welcome an invader. It is an opinion very hard to defend. However, this does not mean that the people before literacy became common couldn't decide about their own fate in any questions. Some questions stood beyond / above news and facts, one of them was identity. Numerous wars were waged for religion and nationality without any literacy required.

People knew that they want a Future A or a Future B, and I'd bet any amount that the majority of the Chinese people would not want to live under foreign rulers.
Last edited by Peter89 on 10 Jun 2021 18:36, edited 1 time in total.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

OpanaPointer
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by OpanaPointer » 10 Jun 2021 17:37

It's safe to say that ~95% of any population are just passengers.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Jun 2021 20:52

Hi Manfredzhang,

I would suggest that the 30,000-odd Chinese living in Japan were anything but a representative sample of the Chinese population.

Firstly, as you point out, they were highly unlikely to be representative of the great majority of China's largely rural population. Half, according to you, were students and those in tertiary education on China were a vanishingly small proportion, even among the literate.

Secondly, they were probably largely self selecting. If they hadn't already been willing to go, they wouldn't have gone.

Thirdly, the Japanese were hardly likely to select recalcitrant opponents for this privilege.

What is your source for these statistics?

You post, "Had we already known 90% of the population were illiterate and could not produce a meaningful poll result. What’s the purpose.....?" But it would be a meaningful result. It would establish the situation beyond mere anecdote and opinion.

Cheers,

Sid.

gebhk
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by gebhk » 10 Jun 2021 21:22

You don’t have to wait.
I'm afraid I do. Other people's assumptions are no substitute for the real thing.
So that poll result I posted above is nothing from imagination but rather a pretty close proxy to reality.
What poll result? What reality?

manfredzhang
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by manfredzhang » 10 Jun 2021 22:54

Peter89 wrote:
10 Jun 2021 17:23
While I put less emphasis on the public opinion (because most of the public opinion were rooted in limited informations), I seriously doubt that China, the Middle Kingdom, the center of the universe, etc. would actually welcome an invader. It is an opinion very hard to defend. However, this does not mean that the people before literacy became common couldn't decide about their own fate in any questions. Some questions stood beyond / above news and facts, one of them was identity. Numerous wars were waged for religion and nationality without any literacy required.

People knew that they want a Future A or a Future B, and I'd bet any amount that the majority of the Chinese people would not want to live under foreign rulers.
Numerous wars were waged for religion and nationality.
---------------------------
1, Religion and nationality are causes or something used to mobilize people. But they had rarely became the real roots for any conflicts. Most wars arose due to the conflict of interest. Land, water, treasury, gold and many times women. These are the real reasons for wars.
One example I can offer was the Boxer movement. Western missionaries came to China since Opium War and remained in China until the conclusion of KMT regime. Most of the time, they shared a peaceful endeavor with local Chinese. The Boxer movement was not caused by the difference of religion nor nationalism but purely conflict of interest.

2, Religion or nationality. You need to brainwash the recipients on a constant basis so they would somehow loosen their basic instinct of self survival to risk their lives for your causes.
Christians go to churches. Muslims go to Mosques. Citizens go to schools to salute national flags and sing national anthems. All these brainwash activities happen daily/weekly. The function of literacy is to help spread these BS and lower the costs to spread.
In short, in 1930 the KMT government did not have enough resources (or willingness) to establish an education system to rapidly improve literacy and hence lower the brainwash costs. That’s why the Chinese Nationalism brainwash agenda remained highly costly and not a significant portion of the population was lucky enough to be brainwashed.

I'd bet any amount that the majority of the Chinese people would not want to live under foreign rulers.
----------------
1, Please do NOT use the current borderline of PRC nor the ROC 1930 borderline to define foreign or domestic of the China in the 1930s or 1940s. As I mentioned above, before the Communists took power, there were no unified Chinese language in the land so called China. To the Northern Chinese, Chiang Kai Shek was as foreign as Emperor Hirohito. They were no differences.

2, As mentioned many times, Chinese people in the 1930s were largely illiterate nor did they receive any brainwash of Chinese Nationalism or Chinese identity. To most of them, China was more a culture concept than a Nation State. What they know is “天下” literally means under the sky or the World. Their loyalty to their village, county or province was much stronger than China. Asking them to defend China was like asking African tribe members to defend the earth. They will look at you with a face full of confusion. That's a remote concern to them at the best. That’s why the KMT resorted to forced conscription and labor as not many were willing to risk their lives to defend China.

3, On contrary to what you think, Chinese people without brainwashed by Chinese Nationalism were highly receptive to foreign rulers. Anyone had basic knowledge of Chinese History knows the Yuan Dynasty which was ruled by the Mogols and Qing Dynasty which was ruled by the Manchus. The Manchu Queue was anything but Han culture. All Han Chinese males accepted it only to drop it after Qing Dynasty was replaced by ROC. See, how flexible the Chinese people were to the foreign rulers.
And also as I mentioned many times, after Japanese took over of Manchuria, millions of Chinese in Northern China migrated to Manchuria. It’s like when Germany took Sudetenland, a significant portion of Czechs went to Sudetenland to be ruled by Germans. Can you imagine that?

Last but not least, just an FYI, in many cases, the so called foreign rulers treated Chinese people better than their domestic rulers...
Last edited by manfredzhang on 10 Jun 2021 23:30, edited 6 times in total.

manfredzhang
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by manfredzhang » 10 Jun 2021 23:11

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 20:52
Hi Manfredzhang,

I would suggest that the 30,000-odd Chinese living in Japan were anything but a representative sample of the Chinese population.

Firstly, as you point out, they were highly unlikely to be representative of the great majority of China's largely rural population. Half, according to you, were students and those in tertiary education on China were a vanishingly small proportion, even among the literate.

Secondly, they were probably largely self selecting. If they hadn't already been willing to go, they wouldn't have gone.

Thirdly, the Japanese were hardly likely to select recalcitrant opponents for this privilege.

What is your source for these statistics?

You post, "Had we already known 90% of the population were illiterate and could not produce a meaningful poll result. What’s the purpose.....?" But it would be a meaningful result. It would establish the situation beyond mere anecdote and opinion.

Cheers,

Sid.
I don’t think you read my post/followed my logic seriously. I have no intention to defend anything I did not say or I did not mean. Do your home work right before you come to me.
And I don’t appreciate you deny the legitimacy of my evidence first then asking for what were my sources? You don’t want to even look at my evidence and jumped to your own conclusion, I certainly don’t want to waist time on you.
This is probably the last post I respond to you.
Last edited by manfredzhang on 10 Jun 2021 23:21, edited 1 time in total.

manfredzhang
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by manfredzhang » 10 Jun 2021 23:15

gebhk wrote:
10 Jun 2021 21:22

I'm afraid I do. Other people's assumptions are no substitute for the real thing.
-----------
So tell me what is the real thing? 90% of the population without being brainwashed of Nationlism all in a sudden wanted to sacrifice their lives for a non existed concept to them? Ask yourself how real this can be?


What poll result? What reality?
--------------
The example I gave to you. These people voted with their own feet. More than half of the Chinese resided in Japan chose to stay in Japan before the outbreak of the Second Sino-Japanese conflicts. Of those who returned to China, some of them actually chose to go back to Japan.
Reality is among the less than 10% literates, half of them chose to stay in Japan or in another words, abandon the so called Chinese Nationalism.

gebhk
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by gebhk » 11 Jun 2021 07:31

So tell me what is the real thing? 90% of the population without being brainwashed of Nationlism all in a sudden wanted to sacrifice their lives for a non existed concept to them? Ask yourself how real this can be?
What the real thing is is what Admiral Bloonbeard asked for:
What were Chinese opinions on Japan during World War 2? What were Chinese views on Japan on the matter of peace?
Not your opinions in 2021.
The example I gave to you.
Which is not an example of opinion so not relevant to this topic.

manfredzhang
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by manfredzhang » 11 Jun 2021 11:24

gebhk wrote:
11 Jun 2021 07:31
So tell me what is the real thing? 90% of the population without being brainwashed of Nationlism all in a sudden wanted to sacrifice their lives for a non existed concept to them? Ask yourself how real this can be?
What the real thing is is what Admiral Bloonbeard asked for:
What were Chinese opinions on Japan during World War 2? What were Chinese views on Japan on the matter of peace?
Not your opinions in 2021.
The example I gave to you.
Which is not an example of opinion so not relevant to this topic.
Over 90% illiteracy is not my opinion but a fact.
Most of the Chinese at the time were not brainwashed of Nationalism/Self identification is not my opinion but a fact.
Chinese languages are highly uninterchangeable is not my opinion but a fact.
Millions of Chinese migrated to Manchuria after Japanese took over is not my opinion but a fact.
Forced conscription and labor happened in China and killed millions of Chinese is not my opinion but a fact.
Chinese civilians helped Japanese to disarm Chinese forces in 1944 is not my opinion but a fact.
Of the 30K Chinese resided in Japan prior to the outbreak of Second Sino-Japanese conflict, more than half chose to stay in Japan is not my opinion but a fact.

My list can go on and on and on and on….
Any people with normal intelligence and without presupposition will draw similar conclusion with me.
I am answering exactly what Admiral Bloonbeard asked for what was Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War with a bunch of facts.
Now my turn. What is your evidence/support that Nationalism prevailed in China in the 1930s. What makes you think most Chinese self identified as Chinese and were willing to defend the country so called China?

The example I gave to you is exactly a demonstration of opinion. It’s a choice of life similar to the Eastern Germans or other Eastern Europeans who escaped from the communist regimes and migrated to Western Countries. That’s a choice with risk to their own lives. A much more real vote than a vote on paper…

gebhk
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by gebhk » 11 Jun 2021 13:47

I am answering exactly what Admiral Bloonbeard asked for what was Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War with a bunch of facts.
You are not answering ABs question but listing a bunch of irrlevant facts to push your own political agenda. Please stop before the thread is closed. If you want to discuss any of these facts, by all means start your own thread but don't hijack someone else's.
The example I gave to you is exactly a demonstration of opinion.
No, it is an example of actions not of opinion. The two are far from being the same.
What is your evidence/support that Nationalism prevailed in China in the 1930s.
I have no such opinion, it is completely a off-topic strawman of your own creation and I have no intention of engaging with it.

manfredzhang
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by manfredzhang » 11 Jun 2021 14:17

gebhk wrote:
11 Jun 2021 13:47
I am answering exactly what Admiral Bloonbeard asked for what was Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War with a bunch of facts.
You are not answering ABs question but listing a bunch of irrlevant facts to push your own political agenda. Please stop before the thread is closed. If you want to discuss any of these facts, by all means start your own thread but don't hijack someone else's.
The example I gave to you is exactly a demonstration of opinion.
No, it is an example of actions not of opinion. The two are far from being the same.
What is your evidence/support that Nationalism prevailed in China in the 1930s.
I have no such opinion, it is completely a off-topic strawman of your own creation and I have no intention of engaging with it.
You are not answering ABs question
-----------------------
Yes I am. AB was asking Chinese people’s opinion. I am using Chinese people’s actions to answer his question. They are highly relevant. Poll is NOT the only platform to demonstrate public opinions.

No, it is an example of actions not of opinion.
-------------------------
Action is the result of opinion. I agree that actions are not polls. Action has much stronger convincing power of opinion than polls. Thanks for making my point.
Most Eastern Germans preferred West Germany over East Germany (3.5M migrated before Berlin Wall was built). Only around 5,000 took action to cross the Berlin Wall with risks of their lives. See the difference? And how many Northern Chinese migrated to Manchuria? Millions?!!!
And you are telling me this is not more convincing than some BS Gallup Polls of public opnions?

I have no such opinion, it is completely a off-topic strawman
-------------------
Right. You don’t have a clue of what were Chinese opinion but couldn’t care less to fabricate a Nationalism prevailed China.

Please stop before the thread is closed.
---------------------
Right. When you fail, there is Mr. David Thompson to teach us the Korrekt History…
I learned that. Thanks for reminding me…

gebhk
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by gebhk » 11 Jun 2021 16:27

You don’t have a clue of what were Chinese opinion
I do not, which is why I am keen to learn what it was. Not someone else's theories about it.
but couldn’t care less to fabricate a Nationalism prevailed China
As far as I can see the only one fabricating this idea is you so please feel free to argue with yourself but please keep me out of it. Preferably elsewhere so that this topic is not closed - as per the above I am keen to learn about Chinese contemporaneous opinion.

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