Peter89 wrote: ↑18 Jun 2021, 09:35
The confusion comes from the fact that Siófok did not have its present-day boundaries, and administratively belonged to two counties (Veszprém and Somogy). Mr. Matyikó correctly used the number of the settlement as we know it today.
It's an interesting explanation. Btw, I visited Veszprem and found the town beautiful, especially the castle and view from it. Now with online translators language barrier is not that unpenetrable as previously. Btw, the banned forumist Sergey was shown a source in Hungarian where it was claimed that a lot of women were raped by Soviet soldiers on a Good Friday 1945 near the city of Gyor. Sergey, as I see, has found a source in English that proves that in fact nobody was raped. I suspect that it is a typical situation. Claims that mass rapes happened here and there and elsewhere meet a logical question - so where exactly and in many cases proposed examples could be easily refuted.
Btw, i visited Gyor and even walked near to the archbishop castle where the archbishop was killed by Soviet soldiers by accident. But nobody was raped.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilmos_Apor
Peter89 wrote: ↑18 Jun 2021, 09:35
Where exactly do you think they
went? They were deported to concentration camps!
Some could return to Budapest, went to the UK or France. Some could emigrate to Palestine. There is sound Hungarian community in Israel (I mean Jews from Hungary). The 'before and after' method is not always correct. The Holocaust survivors could not return all to their native towns or cities. For example a lot of Polish Jews appeared in the UK after WW2 or remained to live in the Soviet union.
Peter89 wrote: ↑18 Jun 2021, 09:35
I don't get it. You imply that citizens were not starving and dying in the Leningrad siege?
Am I completely off the tracks? In less than 24 hours two persons tell me that there was no famine in the SU during the war years.
Hundreds thousands died in Leningrad due to starvation during the blockade. But the population was restored after the war by newcomers who came to Leningrad from other places. So 'before and after' method is not correct in this case.
Yes there was famine in the SU during the war and my parents suffered from it in their native village because the army needed a lot of food.
Peter89 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2021, 18:54
I guess quoting additional Hungarian sources will not help the issue. Besides,
"unfortunate cases" were quite prevalent. The current number of raped women in Budapest is 50-200,000.
Let's use common sense. Population of Budapest:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Budapest
1941 - 1,165,963
1949 - 1,057,912
So there wer about 1,100,000 people in Budapest and about 550,000 were women. So if 50-200 thousands of them were raped then it is 9-36%.
Population of Gyor:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Győr
1941 - 58,431
1949 - 58,431
So in 1945 there about 29,216 women in the city Gyor and it would be logical to suggest that 9-36% of them (2630 - 10520) were raped. It is a huge number for so relatively small town. Gyor is indeed not so big. But where are descriptions of these alleged rapes?
I come to conclusion that the number of raped is intentionally inflated for political reasons.
Peter89 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2021, 18:54
Second, one party's crimes do not extinguish the others'. It is not really a competition who could have been the worst. Because of the nature of rape, looting, and of a generally unrestricted, brutal way of war that happened in this region, I believe most of the crimes will never be revealed, and direct evidence will exist for only a small percentage of the crimes actually committed.
Peter89 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2021, 18:54
What kind of guilt-deflection mechanism is this? When a Soviet war crime is mentioned, you immediately try to name another war crime. Who cares? If you rape a woman, you can't say that XY raped two.
Mass rapes in Italy are well documented. There is a lot of details. As for Hungary then there are only numbers given from nowhere without reference to any reliable documents. The alleged rapes in Gyor with exact place and date were refuted. So try to find another cases with exact place and date to scrutinize them.
Peter89 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2021, 18:54
By the way it is not a competition. One's crimes does not get smaller if there is a bigger crime sometime, somewhere. So it is pointless to use numbers as excuses.
I request a very simple thing that is easy to understand. To accept any allegation about mass rape, proper reliable documents should be shown as it was done in the case with the mass rapes in Italy.
It is not a competition but application of the same standards to all cases of mass rape.
Peter89 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2021, 18:54
What kind of
"unsourced claims" did you encounter?
The claim about so called mass rapes in Budapest Ghetto without proper documents of the same quality as in the case with the rapes in Italy I regard as unsourced claim.
Peter89 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2021, 18:54
In case of the Red Army's misconduct in Hungary, most of the sources I know are in Hungarian. As you don't speak the language, those might not help.
But what do these sources contain? What claims have been made? How many were raped in Székesfehérvár for example and when exactly it happened (if it ever happened). As for Gyor then as I understand there is no any reliable description of mass rape.
Please quote your source (preferably in English) and we would be able to discuss it.
Peter89 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2021, 18:54
There was a real difference though; the German operation was called Operation Retribution. The NATO did not bomb Belgrade with the intention of causing more civilian casualties.
But you see the difference between collateral casualties and deliberate terror bombing of civilians?
For the killed and their relatives the intentions were unimportant. The result - death - matters.
Why it was not possible to begin with economic, diplomatic sanctions? Why it was neede just to bomb, to kill? And note, it was made by so called 'democracies'?
Russia is now under economic sanctions and they in NATO dare not to bomb Moscow just because they know how it would end. But Yugoslavia (that time Serbia and Montenegro) was unable to reply military while 'democratic' decision makers in Washington were voided any moral principles. Pres.Clinton just tried to shadow his amoral infamous affair with ms.Lewinsky.
Peter89 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2021, 18:54
Where are those leaders, who started the Iraqi war?
People voted them out of power, and hammered them to political oblivion. Democracy contains the possibility of self-reflection, and the removal of politicians after unjust wars.
Pres.Bush unleashed the Iraqi war in 2003 and was 'democratically' reelected in 2004. So democracy itself is not a barrier for leaders who are ready to wage unjust wars.
snpol wrote: ↑17 Jun 2021, 23:11
Peter89 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2021, 19:52
The bolshevik Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were discussing a military alliance in November 1940. It's really hard to imagine that a
defensive perimeter was on Molotov's mind when he agreed with Ribbentrop.
For the first time I hear about it - that the Soviet union and Nazi Germany were discussing a military alliance in November 1940. What is your source? And anyway there was no any agreement about such an alliance.
I would like to quote your source
In August 1940, the Soviet Union briefly suspended its deliveries under their commercial agreement after relations were strained following a disagreement over policy in Romania, the Soviet-Finnish War, Germany's falling behind in its deliveries of goods under the pact, and Stalin's concern that Hitler's war with the West might end quickly after France had signed an armistice. The suspension created significant resource problems for Germany.
Hardly it looks as relation between 'allies'. No doubt that spheres of influence, withdrawal of German troops from Finland were discussed along with other economical and political issues. Anyway the sides were far from anything like military alliance.