Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

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snpol
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by snpol » 17 Jul 2021 06:07

wm wrote:
16 Jul 2021 22:31
Water-soaked bodies (with water in the lungs) wouldn't burn easily and the disposal of the bodies was the bottleneck of the operation.
Zyklon B was very safe and is produced to this day (if I'm not mistaken) because it's an excellent pesticide. It's not like you're going to die by inhaling it once or twice.
80% of human body is water. So additional 2-3-5 liters would not be a problem. To burn dead bodies fuel is needed anyway. Just add additional fuel to evaporate water and that's all.
Zyklon B was used in special devices to remove lice from clothes and even to kill lice in railway carriages. But usage of Zyklon B to kill people in chambers look as impractical and technically too difficult.
Anyway millions were killed without any gas chambers - by shootings, by starvation, by inhuman treatment. So even if only a small proportion were killed in gas chambers then it would not mean that the Holocaust didn't take place. It happened with or without gas chambers.
From my point of view (point of view of engineer) gas chambers would be doubtful and impractical solution that German engineers would not propose.

1999
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by 1999 » 17 Jul 2021 11:20

Most of the Jewish people lived in the city, they're they are not peasants. How will they be able to cultivate and feed themselves in an icy territory, dispossessed of everything and that they have never seen ? Not to mention the anti-Semitic local population. They are not going to have fun feeding millions of poor people, many of whom they hate, while they themselves are starving.
Whatever the scenario, millions of Jews and Slavs will die beyond the Urals in a "let them die" policy.


As for Madagascar, one only has to look a little to see the human catastrophe that this immense displacement will bring about. Dr. Burgdörfer studied the question and calculated the population density with the arrival of 7 million Jews. It is impossible that he did not see the problem of hunger and water and say to himself: hundreds of thousands of people will die. The famous "we didn't know" doesn't work.

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by Ivan Ž. » 18 Jul 2021 00:01

snpol wrote:
16 Jul 2021 16:18
As a Russian (and thus a Slav) I doubt that the Nazis intentionally planned to exterminate Slavs (at least all Slavs). It should be said that Northern Russians frequently are tall, blonde or nearly blonde and apparently fit to Nazi racial standards. So many could be just Germanized.
An illustrated addition: without reading the original magazine caption, most people would assume that this "Signal" cover shows a German model-soldier; however, the caption reveals that it is in fact a Russian: "Soldier of the Russian Protection Corps in Serbia fights in the Balkans against Bolshevik gangs." (PK picture by War Correspondent Schilling.)

E5GEPE.jpg
Source: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-1943- ... 77590.html

Cheers,
Ivan
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wm
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by wm » 19 Jul 2021 00:15

1999 wrote:
17 Jul 2021 11:20
Most of the Jewish people lived in the city, they're they are not peasants. How will they be able to cultivate and feed themselves in an icy territory, dispossessed of everything and that they have never seen ? Not to mention the anti-Semitic local population. They are not going to have fun feeding millions of poor people, many of whom they hate, while they themselves are starving.
Whatever the scenario, millions of Jews and Slavs will die beyond the Urals in a "let them die" policy.


As for Madagascar, one only has to look a little to see the human catastrophe that this immense displacement will bring about. Dr. Burgdörfer studied the question and calculated the population density with the arrival of 7 million Jews. It is impossible that he did not see the problem of hunger and water and say to himself: hundreds of thousands of people will die. The famous "we didn't know" doesn't work.
We don't know what Burgdörfer knew so it's improper to assume without evidence.
Madagascar is almost as large as Germany and Poland combined (+100 million people). That's a lot of lands.

By the time the Generalplan Ost would be implemented the Jews would be all dead.
The Poles or rather mostly Polish peasants (60+ percent of the population) would be deported in several years if not decades. If wasn't like the Germans were going to replace them, so it would have to be done slowly.
That was manageable even assuming the usual Soviet inefficiency and mismanagement.

1999
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by 1999 » 21 Jul 2021 08:35

As for Burghofer, the information is reported in Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution.
Indeed, Madagascar is large... but very mountainous and therefore unsuitable for productive agriculture. As a proof, 27 million people live in Madagascar against 120 million in Germany and Poland combined. Not to mention that the level of development of the island is very low and that famines strike its inhabitants episodically. So, in any case, millions of deported Jews will die.
As for the Slavic question, it is unlikely that the populations beyond the Urals would welcome the flood of deportees with open arms. The Russians, for example, are not known for their good relations with the Poles. So in any case, millions of people will die of hunger and cold....

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by michael mills » 22 Jul 2021 08:30

The deportation of an estimated 31 million persons from regions identified for German settlement was scheduled to take place over 25 years. Such a gradual population movement could probably be accommodated progressively, given that there was plenty of available for settlement. After 1945, some 10 million Germans were moved west of the Oder-Neisse Line in the course of just a few years, into a region that was devastated, and although there was some mortality the great majority of the deportees survived.

As for Madagascar, the plan was to transport some four million Jews there. At that time, the native population was much smaller than it is now, so there was plenty of room for the Jews. The plan was for the main movement of Jews to be preceded by groups of medical professionals, agricultural experts and construction crews, who would carry out the necessary preparatory work. Thus, there is no good reason to assume that the settlement of Jews in Madagascar would have resulted in mass mortality, that is simply a prejudicial view.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by michael mills » 22 Jul 2021 10:28

In regard to Madagascar, back in 2015 I posted excerpts from Eichmann's draft plan for the settlement of four million Jews on that island. Those excerpts show that the plan did not involve just dumping shiploads of Jews, but included a considerable amount of preparatory work designed to make the settlement of the Jews feasible.

The excerpts begin here, and continue over several successive posts. You have to read through the thread.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5901&p=1980084&hili ... n#p1980084

Politician01
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by Politician01 » 17 Aug 2021 11:32

The short answer: No

The long answer: This excellent article on the topic: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 177711475F

The summary answer:

1. What is a Slav? When the Czechs were racially examined they were found to be more nordic/aryan than the Austrians or South Germans. Many Polish children who were abducted as youths ended up to be as German as Germans born in Germany. Language is no indicator because Hitler declared the Croats to be Germanic allthough they were speaking a Slavic language. Slovaks and Bulgarians were allies of the Reich. So how do you want to target a group that cannot be defined?

2. GOP was simply impossible to realize on the planned scale - at best there would have been some 10 Million German settlers avaliable for Colonisation between 1945-1960 - that was not even enough for 1938 Poland.If you want to extract resources from this vast area you need workers to do so.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by michael mills » 18 Aug 2021 01:34

In regard to point 2, at one point Himmler asked his demographic experts whether there was sufficient surplus German population to effectively colonise all the regions in Eastern Europe that he had designated for German settlement.

The answer he was given was that there would be sufficient surplus population to provide the necessary colonists, provided that post-war economic growth within Germany did not absorb all that surplus population, and indeed draw in non-German labour from outside the country.

Since it could be predicted that such absorption would occur, and did occur in historical reality, that answer was a way of giving a negative answer to Himmler without explicitly saying no.

The document containing the answer given to Himmler's question is in the collection of documents in the book edited by the late Czeslaw Madajczyk:

"Vom Generalplan-Ost zum Generalsiedlungsplan"

Published München ; New Providence : Saur, 1994.

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wm
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by wm » 20 Aug 2021 15:38

Actually, in the case of the Czechs Hitler thought their origin was Mongolian.

The Slavs were defined in linguistic terms, as members of the same language family.
The Nazis merely tried to identify Slavs with a higher concentration of Aryan or Germanic blood.

The higher concentration was identified by physical features, moral values (for example Polish generals fighting in the September Campaign (1939) were believed to be of Germanic blood because they fought courageously), and their German culture (if present).

michael mills
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by michael mills » 21 Aug 2021 01:39

What is the source of the idea that Hitler thought that the Czechs were of Mongolian origin?

Himmler certainly believed that there was an identifiable Mongol element among the Czechs, but he did not believe that all Czechs were of Mongol origin, only a small minority that could be weeded out.

When I visited the Czech Republic in 2007, the only persons of Mongolian type that I saw were the Chinese running shops selling tourist junk and the staff of the ubiquitous Thai massage parlours.

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wm
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by wm » 21 Aug 2021 07:43

Those were Vietnamese - from the time of the Vietnam War and some later transplants.
12 May 1942
it's enough for a Czech to grow a mustache for anyone to see, from the way the thing droops, that his origin is Mongolian.
Hitler's Table Talk

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Aug 2021 08:49

Hi wm,

Hmmmm. If the droopiness of a moustache is to be the measure, then pretty much any adult male on the planet could become Mongolian at will in Hitler's eyes! I was of Mongolian descent myself by that measure in the mid 1970s!

That quote just goes to show how shallow Hitler's grasp was of ethnicity. And to think that at least 6 million people died as a result of this man's light-weight prejudices and petty bigotry!

Cheers,

Sid.

michael mills
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by michael mills » 21 Aug 2021 10:42

I wonder how serious Hitler was really being with that comment.

I seriously doubt that his policies in regard to the treatment of the population of the Protectorate of Bohemia-Moravia were determined by the qualities of the moustaches sported by the adult male half of the population.

And that leaves open the question of how he determined the ethnicity of Czech women. Unless of course Czech women are able to grow moustaches, which may well be the case.

All in all, I do not think Hitler had any desire to exterminate the Czechs. He probably just wanted them all to be clean-shaven.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by Boby » 21 Aug 2021 14:06

Be careful when quoting the so-called "Table-talk/monologe/tischgespraeche"

https://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Redux-Inc ... eature_div

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