German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 12 Apr 2021 03:09

bam wrote:
10 Apr 2021 01:17
A little known but very influential vehicle was the Wanze, the borgward IV with 6 panzerschreck rocket launchers...
cba17c28728ca383325bf90d12fec0ab.jpg.5102c9d70af8f16f98504ea163cfc9e6.jpg
.
This was an excellent idea, and also the world's first mass produced armoured missile tank destroyer, which is now a very widespread vehicle type. The Wanze was a truly revolutionary idea, only let down by short range. Should have armed it with puppchen or PAW s (750m range). But still, a very sensible solution to Germany's tank needs.
The US revived this design in the 1960s with the Ontos. It carried six 106mm recoiled rifles on racks outside the hull.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by maltesefalcon » 12 Apr 2021 15:15

Turretless AFV like an E5 had a challenge with aiming and accuracy, whether it had a gun or some form of unguided rocket projectiles. Back in the day, they would not have been as effective against an enemy AFV as a main gun in a turret. Not only that, their armour was so thin it would barely be proof against even an M2 heavy machine gun.

In any event would the E5 be any more reliable mechanically that the similar sized PzKw I? That design and its execution (over)produced a fragile vehicle that often broke down before it could even get to the front.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 21 Apr 2021 20:04

One that is very likely to start seeing service is this

https://www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com/bmw-katchen.html

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by sailorsam » 20 Jul 2021 21:40

might they have mass produced reverse-engineered T-34s?
how about tactical missiles? they had V-1s and V-2s that could bombard England, but how about a battlefield missile with a 1-5 mile range?
IIRC the allies had rockets mounted on planes (and some armored vehicles?). great anti-tank devices. don't know why the Germans never made them (as far as I know).
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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 21 Jul 2021 06:01

sailorsam wrote:
20 Jul 2021 21:40
might they have mass produced reverse-engineered T-34s?
how about tactical missiles? they had V-1s and V-2s that could bombard England, but how about a battlefield missile with a 1-5 mile range?
IIRC the allies had rockets mounted on planes (and some armored vehicles?). great anti-tank devices. don't know why the Germans never made them (as far as I know).
That was already done with the VK 3002 (DB) tank entry concurrent with the Panther. The MAN design was selected over the Daimler-Benz entry.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Peter89 » 21 Jul 2021 08:31

sailorsam wrote:
20 Jul 2021 21:40
IIRC the allies had rockets mounted on planes (and some armored vehicles?). great anti-tank devices. don't know why the Germans never made them (as far as I know).
The Germans did not have air superiority to use any airborne rockets effectively. Besides, they did not have the material and support for such a weapon system in late war. Instead, they used the Panzerfaust and the Panzerschreck, which required minimal training and support, and could be used by any foot soldier.
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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Kingfish » 21 Jul 2021 09:55

ThatZenoGuy wrote:
30 Mar 2021 13:11
So where exactly do you think the Germans would've ended up, five, ten years past 1945? What sorta tank would be facing IS4's and T-54's?
The obvious question is from where would these German designs come from, and from what?

By 1945 Germany had been cut in half, millions displaced and destitute, her factories reduced to rubble and her economy starved of the essential raw materials needed to maintain the war effort.

Even if you got a team of designers from Krupp together and they banged out an earlier version of the Leopard II it would only be on paper. I doubt Germany had the resources left to produce even one working prototype.
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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Peter89 » 21 Jul 2021 10:33

Kingfish wrote:
21 Jul 2021 09:55
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
30 Mar 2021 13:11
So where exactly do you think the Germans would've ended up, five, ten years past 1945? What sorta tank would be facing IS4's and T-54's?
The obvious question is from where would these German designs come from, and from what?

By 1945 Germany had been cut in half, millions displaced and destitute, her factories reduced to rubble and her economy starved of the essential raw materials needed to maintain the war effort.

Even if you got a team of designers from Krupp together and they banged out an earlier version of the Leopard II it would only be on paper. I doubt Germany had the resources left to produce even one working prototype.
Even if they had 1000 Leopard 2s, they couldn't operate them... the tanks require fuel, trained crews, regular maintenance, air cover, and supporting troops every kind, like recon and signal troops, etc. Just remember the battle of Arracourt... the Panthers were slaughtered. By 1944 / 1945 every belligerent learned how to use tanks. The use of tanks required a strong infrastructure and a combined arms operation. The Germans had neither by the end of the war. Even if they would have 10,000 Tiger IIs, they couldn't use them; most of them would be blown up by their own crews, as it happened in real life.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 21 Jul 2021 10:37

Kingfish wrote:
21 Jul 2021 09:55
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
30 Mar 2021 13:11
So where exactly do you think the Germans would've ended up, five, ten years past 1945? What sorta tank would be facing IS4's and T-54's?
The obvious question is from where would these German designs come from, and from what?

By 1945 Germany had been cut in half, millions displaced and destitute, her factories reduced to rubble and her economy starved of the essential raw materials needed to maintain the war effort.

Even if you got a team of designers from Krupp together and they banged out an earlier version of the Leopard II it would only be on paper. I doubt Germany had the resources left to produce even one working prototype.
I mean hypotheticals exist for a reason, Germany was planning the E-Series, their designs were becoming more crude, etc. Hypothetically lets say the Russians and allies were a little slow on the offensive and the year is 1947 as they reach Germany's borders.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Takao » 21 Jul 2021 22:44

Hypotheticals exist for a reason...Can't say the same for one-sided hypotheticals - Germany gets all Uber equipment, makes all the right calls, has all the right foresight, etc., ad nauseum.

The E-Series was conceived in May, 1942, and authorized in April, 1943. In the two years that transpired, April, 1943 - April, 1945, what had the program actually produced? Some unfinished hulls. Further, by looking at the development of the Panther, Tiger, and Lowe(design abandoned in July, 1942) the actual finished tank will bear little resemblence to the original paper design

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 22 Jul 2021 01:43

sailorsam wrote:
20 Jul 2021 21:40
might they have mass produced reverse-engineered T-34s?
how about tactical missiles? they had V-1s and V-2s that could bombard England, but how about a battlefield missile with a 1-5 mile range?
IIRC the allies had rockets mounted on planes (and some armored vehicles?). great anti-tank devices. don't know why the Germans never made them (as far as I know).
Re: Nebelwefer

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 22 Jul 2021 05:42

Peter89 wrote:
21 Jul 2021 10:33
Even if they had 1000 Leopard 2s, they couldn't operate them... the tanks require fuel, trained crews, regular maintenance, air cover, and supporting troops every kind, like recon and signal troops, etc. Just remember the battle of Arracourt... the Panthers were slaughtered. By 1944 / 1945 every belligerent learned how to use tanks. The use of tanks required a strong infrastructure and a combined arms operation. The Germans had neither by the end of the war. Even if they would have 10,000 Tiger IIs, they couldn't use them; most of them would be blown up by their own crews, as it happened in real life.
In the September and October battles like Arracourt, the Germans got thumped badly because their leadership had learned all the wrong lessons for fighting in the West by fighting in the East against Russia. What worked in Russia didn't work in the West, and they got creamed for it repeatedly.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 22 Jul 2021 05:53

One weapon likely to make an appearance is the X-7 rotkäppchen ATGM. While crude, it gave infantry another potential longer range tank killing weapon on the cheap.

Image

The PAW 600 is another likely candidate. It's a much cheaper and easier to manufacture general purpose towed gun that had reasonable antitank capacity.

Image

What the Germans needed was stuff like that to make stuff like this:

Image

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Peter89 » 22 Jul 2021 06:31

T. A. Gardner wrote:
22 Jul 2021 05:42
Peter89 wrote:
21 Jul 2021 10:33
Even if they had 1000 Leopard 2s, they couldn't operate them... the tanks require fuel, trained crews, regular maintenance, air cover, and supporting troops every kind, like recon and signal troops, etc. Just remember the battle of Arracourt... the Panthers were slaughtered. By 1944 / 1945 every belligerent learned how to use tanks. The use of tanks required a strong infrastructure and a combined arms operation. The Germans had neither by the end of the war. Even if they would have 10,000 Tiger IIs, they couldn't use them; most of them would be blown up by their own crews, as it happened in real life.
In the September and October battles like Arracourt, the Germans got thumped badly because their leadership had learned all the wrong lessons for fighting in the West by fighting in the East against Russia. What worked in Russia didn't work in the West, and they got creamed for it repeatedly.
What do you mean by that?
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 22 Jul 2021 12:33

T. A. Gardner wrote:
22 Jul 2021 05:42
Peter89 wrote:
21 Jul 2021 10:33
Even if they had 1000 Leopard 2s, they couldn't operate them... the tanks require fuel, trained crews, regular maintenance, air cover, and supporting troops every kind, like recon and signal troops, etc. Just remember the battle of Arracourt... the Panthers were slaughtered. By 1944 / 1945 every belligerent learned how to use tanks. The use of tanks required a strong infrastructure and a combined arms operation. The Germans had neither by the end of the war. Even if they would have 10,000 Tiger IIs, they couldn't use them; most of them would be blown up by their own crews, as it happened in real life.
In the September and October battles like Arracourt, the Germans got thumped badly because their leadership had learned all the wrong lessons for fighting in the West by fighting in the East against Russia. What worked in Russia didn't work in the West, and they got creamed for it repeatedly.
It depends on which period of the Russian campaign you are referring to. In 1941 the German operations were conducted through combined arms tactics. Luftwaffe Liaison officers provided efficient CAS and the troops were sufficiently trained and experienced. Competent commanders and efficient coordination of forces proved to be the backbone of the german tank arm in 1941/42. It was a working system (on the tactical level, at least). Nothing like that can be observed during the German autumn counterattacks of 1944 on the Western front.
Last edited by Pascal. Kullmann. on 23 Jul 2021 11:21, edited 1 time in total.

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