Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

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ljadw
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2018 20:29

About British-controlled merchant shipping, one can read the following in 'The Hunters '(Clay Blair ) P 99

September 1939 :British : 17,524 million GRT /Foreign (= British controlled ) : 0,26 million Total : 17,784 million
September 1941 : British :16,165 million /Foreign : 4,387 million Total : 20, 552 million
Conclusion : Britain was winning the UBoat War .But, notwithstanding this, the imports were going down by 11 million ton, for other reasons .Mainly the Italian entry in the war.

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Montgomery
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Montgomery » 05 Jul 2021 22:16

ljadw wrote:
04 Jul 2018 18:45

My source about British imports is "German submarine blockade, overseas imports,and British militry production in WWII (By Erin Weir );on P 8 Table I , he gives the following figures for British Dry-cargo imports (without oil )
1940 : 41,9 million GRT
1941 : 30,5
1942 : 22,9
1943 : 26,4
1944 : 25,1
User ljadw
This numbers are irrelevant here !
, because US entered the war by the end of 1941 , MV , Cargo , Supplied were coming to UK as war supply and British Import.

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ljadw
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 06 Jul 2021 07:26

They were coming to UK already before PH, as Lend Lease.

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Montgomery
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Montgomery » 06 Jul 2021 11:47

ljadw wrote:
06 Jul 2021 07:26
They were coming to UK already before PH, as Lend Lease.
Yes till 1941 there were only MV !!
But After 1941 , there were MV to US Army and UK Lend Lease
The US supplies to their army were not calculated in your figure after 1941

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ljadw
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 06 Jul 2021 14:38

That the US supplies to their army were not calculated after 1941 is very logical,as they were not British imports .Thus, I think that the figures I have given are correct .

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Montgomery
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Montgomery » 09 Jul 2021 11:41

ljadw wrote:
06 Jul 2021 14:38
That the US supplies to their army were not calculated after 1941 is very logical, as they were not British imports .Thus, I think that the figures I have given are correct .
Yes it might be correct , but irrelevant because they are not showing everything shipped from US to UK!

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ljadw
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 11 Jul 2021 11:10

The British war time imports ( Cash Carry, LL,...,but not included what was sent to the UK for the American forces in Britain ) was some 190 million of tons or on the average some 32 million per year (almost 80 % of the pre war imports ) of which 95 % arrived .
Source : Conflict over convoys P 249.
Everything that was shipped from the US to the UK does not need to be shown , only the imports from the Ministry of Food and from the Ministry of Supply .

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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Boby » 11 Jul 2021 11:19

Hancock gives a statistical chart, here
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/ ... ats-3.html

Boby,

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Montgomery
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Montgomery » 24 Jul 2021 03:56

More U-Boats means more allied losses in 1940 and 1941 and it may not be the correct from the middle of 1942 onward!~~at least in Atlantic theatre
This is the right statement , the allied reached effective weapon to limit the danger of U-BOAT by middle of 1942 ! which was the Surface radar carried by Airplane !! that was US new War strategy.
According to U-Baot.net up to 56% of the destroyed U-BOAT in all war period caused/due to Surface Radar mounted on Aircraft.
In World at War Documentary movies Donitz alleged that his urgent requests to focus and increase the manufacturing of U-Boats must be on going before our opponent Anlgo-American reached effective weapon for Anti-Submarine!! that was his words -
Donitz was right.

He achieved the highest number of destroyed MV and Warship by end of 1941 !! with only 35 boats losses in 1941
https://uboat.net/fates/losses/
and he had no more 88 Operational U-BOAT page 132
https://www.ajol.info/index.php/smsajms ... 281/140858
Think about if German Marine industry focused only on U-BOATS manufacturing and delivered operational 300 U-BOAT. In July or September 1940 as Donitz requested at the beginning of the war!!

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ljadw
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 24 Jul 2021 07:19

The truth is that Doenitz had more U Boats in 1941 and sank less MV .The increase of the British Merchant Fleet was bigger than the losses caused by U Boats .Britain had lost 3,2 million tonnage of merchant vessels at the end of 1941 because of the U Boats .
300 U Boats ( operational or not ) was out of the question . It took more than a year to build a U Boat and more than a year to train its crew . And, 300 U Boats is not the same as 300 operational U Boats .
Besides, the number of MV/supplies that were lost because of the U Boats was peanuts compared to what arrived in Britain : Britain imported some 180 million tons of supplies during the war .
Compare this to the supplies that were lost because of U Boats.
And,a big number of these lost supplies had not Britain as destination : the PX convoys, those of the Mediterranean, the Torch convoys, the convoys to the east,etc

ljadw
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 24 Jul 2021 07:23

Montgomery wrote:
24 Jul 2021 03:56
More U-Boats means more allied losses in 1940 and 1941 and it may not be the correct from the middle of 1942 onward!~~at least in Atlantic theatre
This is the right statement , the allied reached effective weapon to limit the danger of U-BOAT by middle of 1942 ! which was the Surface radar carried by Airplane !! that was US new War strategy.
According to U-Baot.net up to 56% of the destroyed U-BOAT in all war period caused/due to Surface Radar mounted on Aircraft.
In World at War Documentary movies Donitz alleged that his urgent requests to focus and increase the manufacturing of U-Boats must be on going before our opponent Anlgo-American reached effective weapon for Anti-Submarine!! that was his words -
Donitz was right.

He achieved the highest number of destroyed MV and Warship by end of 1941 !! with only 35 boats losses in 1941
https://uboat.net/fates/losses/
and he had no more 88 Operational U-BOAT page 132
https://www.ajol.info/index.php/smsajms ... 281/140858
Think about if German Marine industry focused only on U-BOATS manufacturing and delivered operational 300 U-BOAT. In July or September 1940 as Donitz requested at the beginning of the war!!

Cheers
780 U Boats were lost during combats, of which 250 by aircraft, which is not 56 % but 32 % .

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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 24 Jul 2021 13:21

One should be very suspicious about what was saying Doenitz,or any other military leader after the war,as what all of them were saying to the media or in their memoirs was not objective but biased .
About the claim that more U Boats mean more losses of MV/of supplies,this is contradicted by the following figures
1939 : U Boats : 54 Merchant shipping losses from Atlantic convoys : 147 ships and 509000 GRT
In 1940 : 83 U Boats and 513 ships and 2,435,000 GRT
In 1941 : 250 U Boats , 431 MV and 2,224,000 GRT
In 1942 : 403 U Boats ,1000 MV and 5,385,000 GRT
In 1943 : 452 U Boats , 310 MV and 1,860,000 GRT
In 1944 : 428 U Boats , 61 MV and 313000 GRT
in 1945 : 349 U Boats ,54 MV and 231000 GRT .
Source : U Boats versus Destroyer Escorts (Gordon Williamson )

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Montgomery
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Montgomery » 25 Jul 2021 00:58

ljadw wrote:
24 Jul 2021 13:21
One should be very suspicious about what was saying Doenitz,or any other military leader after the war,as what all of them were saying to the media or in their memoirs was not objective but biased .
About the claim that more U Boats mean more losses of MV/of supplies,this is contradicted by the following figures
1939 : U Boats : 54 Merchant shipping losses from Atlantic convoys : 147 ships and 509000 GRT
In 1940 : 83 U Boats and 513 ships and 2,435,000 GRT
In 1941 : 250 U Boats , 431 MV and 2,224,000 GRT
In 1942 : 403 U Boats ,1000 MV and 5,385,000 GRT
In 1943 : 452 U Boats , 310 MV and 1,860,000 GRT
In 1944 : 428 U Boats , 61 MV and 313000 GRT
in 1945 : 349 U Boats ,54 MV and 231000 GRT .
Source : U Boats versus Destroyer Escorts (Gordon Williamson )
In the above figures , something needs double checking!! MV is lesser and
According to Donitz the MV sunk by U-Boat were 2,472 and he claimed this is the allied figures. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/05-09-46.asp
According to UBoat.net 262 Warships and 97 Auxiliary ships had been hit and sunk by U-Boat during the war , these are different from MV .
https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/warships.html
I don't know wither Donitz meant the Warship and Auxiliary ships included in the 2,472 or not !

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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 25 Jul 2021 05:59

My figures are those of the Atlantic convoys,including or not (!) the PX convoys, the Drumbeat losses,the losses in the Mediterranean and the Indian Ocean .
Whatever, 13 million GRT lost (are these losses supplies only, or MV tonnage only,or a combination of both ? ) are insignificant compared to the 180 million tons that Britain succeeded to import during the war .
The main cause for the decrease of British imports during the war,which were going down from 40/ 50 million yearly before the war to 30 million during the war, was not the existence of the U Boats ,but the fact that Britain had not enough MV to transport the additional imports that were needed during the war .
Britain had to import more ( X million tons ) ,as this was not possible ( there were also financial reasons ) ,Britain decided to curtail its pre war imports .And this had nothing to do with the U Boats .

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Montgomery
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Montgomery » 01 Aug 2021 11:24

ljadw wrote:
25 Jul 2021 05:59
Britain had to import more ( X million tons ) ,as this was not possible ( there were also financial reasons ) ,Britain decided to curtail its pre war imports .And this had nothing to do with the U Boats .
May I say the you are simply trying to downsize the effectiveness and importance of U-Boat :?

By 1942 Germany transferred all service men to U-Boat and directed the industry and shipyards to manufacture U-Boats only!!, because finally Hitler agreed to what Rider and Donitz had been tried hard to convince him in 1939 that U-Boat is more effective to war effort and the war will be decided/Ended faster through U-Boat! this is one of Hitler's/OKW fatal mistake to delay that switch.

Prime Minister Churchill had wrote the UBOAT was his scary nightmares during the first 3 years of the war!! it is simply because of the damage they produced! end of story!

Here the fair closing statement :-)

No body can guarantee - if Donitz had 300 Boats at beginning of 1940 - Britain will be fully blockade ,or forced to armistice !!they will find a way even Air cargo backed up by the US full industry !! - Britain will never surrender !
But there is guarantee that the 300 boats will cause much more damages and more suffering to the British war industry and army.

Cheers

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