Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
Hello,
During Ww2 the Allies pooled their manufacturing resources for better efficiency. Some examples:
US sending the SU such things as trucks and railway engines allowing more of Soviet manufacturing to be dedicated to tanks.
US and Britain agreed that Britain would reduce their tank building in order to build large objects such as cranes that were difficult to ship accross the Atlantic. The shortfall in tank production would be made up by US models which were easily shipped accross the Atlantic.
My question is could/should the Axis have done the same? I believe that the smaller Axis nations couldn"t produce heavy tanks could these nations have concentrated on building, for example, trucks, half tracks and other light vehicles allowing Germany to concentrate on heavier vehicles?
While I am sure there are many other savings the Allies made and even more that the Axis could make these are what came to mind whilst writing.
Thanks
Mark.
During Ww2 the Allies pooled their manufacturing resources for better efficiency. Some examples:
US sending the SU such things as trucks and railway engines allowing more of Soviet manufacturing to be dedicated to tanks.
US and Britain agreed that Britain would reduce their tank building in order to build large objects such as cranes that were difficult to ship accross the Atlantic. The shortfall in tank production would be made up by US models which were easily shipped accross the Atlantic.
My question is could/should the Axis have done the same? I believe that the smaller Axis nations couldn"t produce heavy tanks could these nations have concentrated on building, for example, trucks, half tracks and other light vehicles allowing Germany to concentrate on heavier vehicles?
While I am sure there are many other savings the Allies made and even more that the Axis could make these are what came to mind whilst writing.
Thanks
Mark.
You know you're British when you drive your German car to an Irish pub for a pint of Belgian beer before having an Indian meal. When you get home you sit on your Sweedish sofa and watch American programs on your Japanese TV.
- TheMarcksPlan
- Banned
- Posts: 3255
- Joined: 15 Jan 2019, 23:32
- Location: USA
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
To make this an efficiency argument you'd have to show an American comparative advantage in trucks and locomotives versus tanks. It's a feasible argument but lacks any evidence in your post and any that I can think of.
US subsidy of Soviet fighting was not based on production efficiency. Rather, it was based on the bald fact that only/primarily (depending on date) the Soviets were actually fighting the German army, and that the US had an embarrassment of idle riches while the poor Soviet peasants/workers were dying by millions to pull the West's chestnuts from the fire.
I understand the intuition behind the question but don't see much missed payout here. If anything, the less-sophisticated economies should have been focused on turning raw materials into less-sophisticated (per weight of input) items like shells and heavier vehicles. The more-sophisticated products (per weight of input) like aircraft, radar, and light vehicles should have been left to Germany.MarkF617 wrote: My question is could/should the Axis have done the same? I believe that the smaller Axis nations couldn"t produce heavy tanks could these nations have concentrated on building, for example, trucks, half tracks and other light vehicles allowing Germany to concentrate on heavier vehicles?
While I am sure there are many other savings the Allies made and even more that the Axis could make these are what came to mind whilst writing.
The planned Iwan Program in occupied Ukraine reflects this logic - Germany intended to outsource there much shell production. As it turned out, Germany lost the Iwan Program's geography and most of its capital expenditure to RKKA just before its investment was scheduled to come online.
Had Germany defeated the SU, circumstances would have arisen in which she would have been able - and almost certainly willing - to ensure Japan's continued diversion of much Allied effort to the Pacific. Germany could have, e.g., sent a small amount of land weapons via TSRR to ensure IJA's conquest of China and possibly India. IJA had only 15,000 trucks in its 1944 Ichi-Go offensive, which nearly collapsed Chiang's government and probably ensured its later loss to the Communists (great irony of WW2 is both anti-communist powers enabled communism to own most of Eurasia). Similarly, German aviation production could have shown massive returns if invested in, e.g., cheap piloted V1's for kamikaze attacks around the Mariana and Ryuku Islands.
https://twitter.com/themarcksplan
https://www.reddit.com/r/AxisHistoryForum/
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942
https://www.reddit.com/r/AxisHistoryForum/
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
Not much time to reply at the moment so:
The British building heavy/bulky stuff while using American tanks is not an argument of mine, it was an agreement made between the 2 countries to ease shipping. (The Americans wanted the British to cease all tank building but they, fortunately, refused). They would not have done this if there was no shipping benefit.
I partially agree about Germany building the technical stuff but I read somewhere (sorry don't remember where) that the smaller countries (or at least some of them) could only build light tanks as that was all their industry could handle. In this case it makes sense for them to build the light stuff and Germany the heavy stuff. My main point, as I don't know which countries could produce what, is that production is spread over the Axis countries to ensure maximum production of useful items and limitation of things such as outdated tanks/aitcraft.
One last point is to point out that this is not a what if to give the Axis a victory. No matter what they did they would lose. There would be no victory in the east and no sending stuff over land to Japan. Please stick to what did happen and what could be done within reality. Any improvements made would at most cause more casualties and maybe delay the end by a short time.
Thanks
Mark
The British building heavy/bulky stuff while using American tanks is not an argument of mine, it was an agreement made between the 2 countries to ease shipping. (The Americans wanted the British to cease all tank building but they, fortunately, refused). They would not have done this if there was no shipping benefit.
I partially agree about Germany building the technical stuff but I read somewhere (sorry don't remember where) that the smaller countries (or at least some of them) could only build light tanks as that was all their industry could handle. In this case it makes sense for them to build the light stuff and Germany the heavy stuff. My main point, as I don't know which countries could produce what, is that production is spread over the Axis countries to ensure maximum production of useful items and limitation of things such as outdated tanks/aitcraft.
One last point is to point out that this is not a what if to give the Axis a victory. No matter what they did they would lose. There would be no victory in the east and no sending stuff over land to Japan. Please stick to what did happen and what could be done within reality. Any improvements made would at most cause more casualties and maybe delay the end by a short time.
Thanks
Mark
You know you're British when you drive your German car to an Irish pub for a pint of Belgian beer before having an Indian meal. When you get home you sit on your Sweedish sofa and watch American programs on your Japanese TV.
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
could they or would they
I am sure they could IF they wanted to do so
but as the axis was more like a herd of cats
or maybe a bit less organized then that
all that points to real BIG WHAT IF
the axis was as united in aims and ambitions as the allied powers were
my war winning move in that case is
japan's fleet attacks england in late summer 1940 along with all of the euro axis's ships and boats aircraft ect
not so much about who would build what and more about use what we have NOW to best effect at the moment
holding nothing back 100% all in right then
but we know they didnot even think of it
I am sure they could IF they wanted to do so
but as the axis was more like a herd of cats
or maybe a bit less organized then that
all that points to real BIG WHAT IF
the axis was as united in aims and ambitions as the allied powers were
my war winning move in that case is
japan's fleet attacks england in late summer 1940 along with all of the euro axis's ships and boats aircraft ect
not so much about who would build what and more about use what we have NOW to best effect at the moment
holding nothing back 100% all in right then
but we know they didnot even think of it
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
No. This is not a war winning move this is pure fantasy. Please stick to what is realistic.
Thanks
Mark.
Thanks
Mark.
You know you're British when you drive your German car to an Irish pub for a pint of Belgian beer before having an Indian meal. When you get home you sit on your Sweedish sofa and watch American programs on your Japanese TV.
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
I did hear on an audio book (on a knifes edge by Prit Buttar) this morning that 2 reasons Germany didn't supply the satellite nations with too much equipment was that until Stalingrad they thought they would win do it wasn't necessary.
The second being they didn't want to arm potential future enemies. With this sort of thinking no real co-operation is ever possible.
Thanks
Mark.
The second being they didn't want to arm potential future enemies. With this sort of thinking no real co-operation is ever possible.
Thanks
Mark.
You know you're British when you drive your German car to an Irish pub for a pint of Belgian beer before having an Indian meal. When you get home you sit on your Sweedish sofa and watch American programs on your Japanese TV.
-
- Member
- Posts: 10158
- Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
Hi MarkF617,
This was, to a degree, done, though far too late. For example, both Hungary and Romania were producing Bf109Gs by 1944. Hungary was supplying locally built Me210s to Germany and there were plans to use the Romanian Maresal chassis as the basis for a self propelled anti-aircraft gun mount for use by the Germans as well. Bulgaria built dozens of MFP ferries for the Germans in the Black Sea. The Czech and Slovak economies were almost entirely integrated into those of the Reich. Even French factories were manufacturing Fiesler Storchs.
However, the manufacturing bases of most of these countries was too small, even collectively, to make much difference to wider outcomes, no matter how closely integrated with those of the Reich.
For political reasons, Germany never had the same long term dominance over the one ally with a fairly substantial industrial base that might have been of significant use - Italy. Moreover, any transition to manufacturing German equipment would be disruptive and take time. Indeed, in 1945 Kesselring had plans to make the German Italian front almost self-sufficient by continuing to manufacture Italian armaments for issue to locally deployed German troops.
However, all these projects were attempted too late in the war to make any great difference, even where implemented.
Cheers,
Sid.
This was, to a degree, done, though far too late. For example, both Hungary and Romania were producing Bf109Gs by 1944. Hungary was supplying locally built Me210s to Germany and there were plans to use the Romanian Maresal chassis as the basis for a self propelled anti-aircraft gun mount for use by the Germans as well. Bulgaria built dozens of MFP ferries for the Germans in the Black Sea. The Czech and Slovak economies were almost entirely integrated into those of the Reich. Even French factories were manufacturing Fiesler Storchs.
However, the manufacturing bases of most of these countries was too small, even collectively, to make much difference to wider outcomes, no matter how closely integrated with those of the Reich.
For political reasons, Germany never had the same long term dominance over the one ally with a fairly substantial industrial base that might have been of significant use - Italy. Moreover, any transition to manufacturing German equipment would be disruptive and take time. Indeed, in 1945 Kesselring had plans to make the German Italian front almost self-sufficient by continuing to manufacture Italian armaments for issue to locally deployed German troops.
However, all these projects were attempted too late in the war to make any great difference, even where implemented.
Cheers,
Sid.
-
- Member
- Posts: 816
- Joined: 22 Jan 2014, 04:16
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
I've always thought they could have built a fairly decent aircraft production in Hungary. handed off the HE-123 & Bf-110 to them, as both were being phased out, but as it turns out both continued to be used?Sid Guttridge wrote: ↑02 Aug 2021, 12:42This was, to a degree, done, though far too late. For example, both Hungary and Romania were producing Bf109Gs by 1944. Hungary was supplying locally built Me210s to Germany
For political reasons, Germany never had the same long term dominance over the one ally with a fairly substantial industrial base that might have been of significant use - Italy.
-
- Member
- Posts: 10158
- Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
Hi Thaddeus,
While obsolescent aircraft types might go out of production, the machine tools that made them remain useful for building other aircraft. If the machine tools for building the Hs123 and Me110 were sent to Hungary, they couldn't be used to make more advanced types in Germany. The Germans hoovered up machine tools from all over occupied Europe to expand their own production.
Cheers,
Sid.
While obsolescent aircraft types might go out of production, the machine tools that made them remain useful for building other aircraft. If the machine tools for building the Hs123 and Me110 were sent to Hungary, they couldn't be used to make more advanced types in Germany. The Germans hoovered up machine tools from all over occupied Europe to expand their own production.
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
very much depends on if you want a real possible war winning what if
or just ideas that allow the axis to lose more slowly then in real history
the one and only win is take out the pre-allied nations one by one
before they can put together a united front
or just ideas that allow the axis to lose more slowly then in real history
the one and only win is take out the pre-allied nations one by one
before they can put together a united front
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
as to your basic question
no for japan almost anything they could make would never get to europe
as would any euro product be sunk on the long trip to the far east
long lance torpedo was a good surface ship weapon but not used in subs
euro axis did not have many surface ships to use the long lance on
unless you get the USSR in the axis or semi allied with them to ship thru
no real safe way to get to the far east and back
no for japan almost anything they could make would never get to europe
as would any euro product be sunk on the long trip to the far east
long lance torpedo was a good surface ship weapon but not used in subs
euro axis did not have many surface ships to use the long lance on
unless you get the USSR in the axis or semi allied with them to ship thru
no real safe way to get to the far east and back
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
This is not meant to be a what if. I will re-itterate that no matter what the Axis powers do they lose. It is meant to be a simple exercise to see how the Axis nations could pulled together to rationalise their production to build more of fewer and better designs. I was thinking of the European Axis as, as you pointed out, Japan was on their own. At best they could swap designs.
As I have since descovered that basic arrogance and paranoia on the part of Germany meant this was never going to happen until a late war panic when they finally admitted to themselves that they were doomed.
This is just another example where the Allies were superior.
Thanks
Mark.
As I have since descovered that basic arrogance and paranoia on the part of Germany meant this was never going to happen until a late war panic when they finally admitted to themselves that they were doomed.
This is just another example where the Allies were superior.
Thanks
Mark.
You know you're British when you drive your German car to an Irish pub for a pint of Belgian beer before having an Indian meal. When you get home you sit on your Sweedish sofa and watch American programs on your Japanese TV.
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
Generally, the Germans did not run an economy which aimed mutual coexistence and prosperity.
I can go into the details about Hungary and aircraft production... but it doesn't really worth the breath. What the Germans actually did was to absorb the highly industrialized parts of the late Austro-Hungarian Empire, and used the rest as raw material sources. The whole area from Finland to Greece suffered from a lack of capital, so it is not really a question whether the "Axis" could have done it better, because they could. The good question here is whether they ever wanted to disperse manufacturing, invest heavily in other nationalities as they spent on themselves, and the answer for that is no.
I can go into the details about Hungary and aircraft production... but it doesn't really worth the breath. What the Germans actually did was to absorb the highly industrialized parts of the late Austro-Hungarian Empire, and used the rest as raw material sources. The whole area from Finland to Greece suffered from a lack of capital, so it is not really a question whether the "Axis" could have done it better, because they could. The good question here is whether they ever wanted to disperse manufacturing, invest heavily in other nationalities as they spent on themselves, and the answer for that is no.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."
-
- Member
- Posts: 10158
- Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
Hi Peter89,
I would suggest that the Germans did want to invest abroad - provided they controlled and owned the plants and their output. In Romania the Hermann Goering Werke took over the largest industrial group in the country, Malaxa, and renamed it Rogifer. (I think the "Ro" was for Romania, the "g" for "Germania" and "ifer" for the Romanian for iron - "fier".) In Slovakia the HGW also took over all the previously Czech-owned industrial plants. Hungary's largest industrial enterprise, Manfred Weiss, had also been taken over from its Jewish owners by Himmler's SS-Wirtschafts-und-Verwaltungshauptamt by August 1944. (If I remember correctly, its output of aircraft was split 2:1 in favour of Germany since well before this). The Koralovag shipyard in Bulgaria, which produced MFP ferries for the Wehrmacht, was owned by the German Viking Schiffbau-Gesellschaft.
Cheers,
Sid.
I would suggest that the Germans did want to invest abroad - provided they controlled and owned the plants and their output. In Romania the Hermann Goering Werke took over the largest industrial group in the country, Malaxa, and renamed it Rogifer. (I think the "Ro" was for Romania, the "g" for "Germania" and "ifer" for the Romanian for iron - "fier".) In Slovakia the HGW also took over all the previously Czech-owned industrial plants. Hungary's largest industrial enterprise, Manfred Weiss, had also been taken over from its Jewish owners by Himmler's SS-Wirtschafts-und-Verwaltungshauptamt by August 1944. (If I remember correctly, its output of aircraft was split 2:1 in favour of Germany since well before this). The Koralovag shipyard in Bulgaria, which produced MFP ferries for the Wehrmacht, was owned by the German Viking Schiffbau-Gesellschaft.
Cheers,
Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 03 Aug 2021, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Could the Axis nations have pooled manufacturing resources?
They made some investments, there's no doubt about that. As long as it suited their immediate needs, they utilized local industrial capacities. Also, as they conquered Austria, Czechoslovakia, France, etc. they assumed the Austrian, Czech, French, etc. shareholder rights in the major industrial firms and banks in their minor allies' economies.Sid Guttridge wrote: ↑03 Aug 2021, 19:54Hi Peter89,
I would suggest that the Germans did want to invest abroad - provided they controlled and owned the plants and their output. In Romania the Hermann Goering Werke took over the largest industrial group in the country, Malaxa, and renamed it Rogifer. (I think the "Ro" was for Romania, the "g" for "Germania" and "ifer" for the Romanian for iron - "fier".) In Slovakia the HGW also took over all the previously Czech-owned industrial plants. Hungary's largest industrial enterprise, Manfred Weiss, had also been taken over from its Jewish owners by Himmler's SS-Wirtschafts-und-Verwaltungshauptamt by August 1944. (If I remember correctly, its output of aircraft was split 2:1 in favour of Germany since well before this). The Koralovag shipyard in Bulgaria, which produced MFP ferries for the Wehrmacht, was owned by the German Viking Schiffbau-Gesellschaft.
Cheers,
Sid.
I am more familiar with the Hungarian and Yugoslav investments. In case of Romania, I only read Romania 1866-1947 by Keith Hitchins, which explicitly states that German capital played little to no part in the country's industry before late 1940, and that Germany did not even recover the positions she held before World War I.
We can make a case here; Germany was really successful in exploiting these countries, if we look on the picture from cost / benefit ratio. The Germans invested only a little and improved their raw material imports very effectively. On the other hand, Germany failed to "pool manufacturing resources", dispersing manufacturing industry or even rationalize raw material, food or semi-finished product production. In case of the Luftwaffe, 5 tons of bauxite produces 2 tons of alumina, which produces 1 ton of aluminum. And what did the Germans do? Transported the bauxite from Greece, Yugoslavia and Hungary to the Reich, although these countries had sufficient electric power, skilled workforce and willingness to build alumina refineries and aluminum foundries.
The same goes for food production. In Hungary, a large portion of the peasantry used scythes in harvesting, etc. there was basically no German investment. But when it came to areas under their administration? They invested into the worst quality lands in order to increase food production in the name of autarchy. What German investments took place in the region from Finland to Greece it always served their immediate interests, and useful local investments were only made when the local leadership insisted.
I could continue the list (what they did in manganese, chrome, oil, synthfuel, etc. production), but the picture is essentially the same as it is written in DRZW I. Their plans were quite eindeutig in the region of Bánát; it could give a hint to both the Romanians and Hungarians what they could expect from the Germans on the long haul.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."