Rundstedt's central reserve

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Juan G. C.
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#316

Post by Juan G. C. » 07 Aug 2021, 18:44

Richard Anderson wrote:
28 Jul 2021, 19:09
Sorry to be so late responding.
Don't worry. As you can see, I am also late responding.
I doubt seriously that the three German divisions sent to reinforce the Crimea would have made a decisive difference to the fortunes of HG-S or HG-A in the winter of 1943/1944 and spring of 1944.
Of course, they alone wouldn't have made a decisive difference, only together with the other forces freed.
Indeed, because the Soviets were at the far end of an unconstrained pursuit following the breakthrough battles of late November 1942. Hausser's SS-Korps was fresh, newly re-equipped, and ready to go. What comparable force was there ready to stop the Soviets in December 1943?
I'm not saying Army Group South could have achieved a victory comparable to that of Kharkov, my point was that simply a small numbers of operational tanks does not necessarily preclude success.

Moreover, at the end of the Zhitomir-Berdichev offensive, the Soviets were in a similar state to that before the Third Battle of Kharkov (although probably not so bad). In Robert M. Citino's The Wehrmacht last stand It is said:
[The Soviets] were in full-on pursuit mode, with three armies abreast (38th, 1st Tank, and 40th) driving hard on their objectives. All three armies had been fighting sustained combat for nearly three weeks, however, their edge was dulled, and stocks of field supplies, ammunition, and perhaps human energy were beginning to run low. All offensives eventually peter out, of course, a point made by Clausewitz when he coined the term “culmination point,” that moment when the offensive has achieved all it can and begins, at first imperceptibly, to ebb. But moving beyond the great philosopher, it is clear that ending an offensive had become a systemic problem for the Soviet military. Soviet commanders steeped in the doctrine of deep battle tended to drive on until they imploded from their own overstretch and exhaustion (or until the Germans caught them in a vise).
By the way, you first say 1. Panzer Army had only 35 operational tanks, and then you say it had 347. Perhaps in one of those you meant 4. Panzer Army?
Yes, my bad.
Which of them had 347 and which had 35 operational tanks?

The reinforcement from the West was sent at the end of March 1944 and had little real effect in changing the events in the East. As already mentioned that likely would result in a single division ready for the Normandy front.

The notion that divisions sent to HG-S and HG-A to stabilize the situation in October-December 1943 and January 1944 would be sent West if the situation "stabilized" through a massive withdrawal of the two HG is a curious one. Why? Those divisions from "other fronts" included 16. Panzer-Division sent East in December 1943 from Italy, but otherwise were drawn from HG-N and HG-M. I seriously doubt that any of them would have been sent West, but more likely would have been returned to their own unstable fronts in spring 1944. In late December 1943, HG-M had just 206 operational Panzers, while HG-N had all of 58.
I didn't mean the divisions sent in October 1943-January 1944, but those sent from January to May 11944. And if the High Command could send to Army Group South divisions from Army Groups Center and North when Army Group South needed them, why couldn't send them West, where the invasion was expected?

Juan G. C.
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#317

Post by Juan G. C. » 07 Aug 2021, 18:51

Cult Icon wrote:
28 Jul 2021, 18:21

If you don't know the answer to this it is time to get your answers from studying more tactical material and not asking queries.

Finally, this comes to the question I've been waiting to ask: what you are trying to do with this thread and where you want it to lead to, other than draw people out to make time-consuming responses to your proposals? This is starting to get repetitive, your point that more Pz divisions could have been shipped West has been made and also floating the (interesting) ideas of a stronger counterattack June 7th etc.

I am pretty confident that a more offensive-oriented German Normandy campaign could have been conducted. Whether or not it would have been successful is not my concern. That's enough for me.
My apologies if I am being repetitive. As I previously said, I was searching for a way to defeat the Normandy landings, and, as I am no military expert, I ask here if this or that way could have been successful.


Richard Anderson
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#318

Post by Richard Anderson » 07 Aug 2021, 19:08

Juan G. C. wrote:
07 Aug 2021, 18:44
Don't worry. As you can see, I am also late responding.
Life intervenes. :D
Of course, they alone wouldn't have made a decisive difference, only together with the other forces freed.
Having a force adequate to hold a defensive line does not actually mean other forces are freed. Some might be and some might not be.
I'm not saying Army Group South could have achieved a victory comparable to that of Kharkov, my point was that simply a small numbers of operational tanks does not necessarily preclude success.
Sure, but your example was of a large number of operational tanks intervening at the point where the opposition had a small number of operational tanks. I am not clear that the reverse is true?
Moreover, at the end of the Zhitomir-Berdichev offensive, the Soviets were in a similar state to that before the Third Battle of Kharkov (although probably not so bad).
Indeed, I doubt the Soviets were nearly in as dire a circumstance as they were at the end of the Stalingrad counteroffensive...and they did not have a newly arrived and fresh Panzer Korps to contend with or any such on the horizon.
Which of them had 347 and which had 35 operational tanks?
Sorry. As of 31 December 1943, Panzer "Armee" 1. consisted of s.Pz.Abtl. 509 with 7 operational Tiger, 6. Pz.Div. with 1 Pz II, 2 Pz III(l), 10 Pz IV(l48), and 1 PzBefWg operational, and 17. Pz.Div. with 3 Pz III(l), 4 Pz IV(l48), 4 Panther, 2 PzBefWg, and 1 PzBeobWg operational. A grand total of 1 light, 23 medium, and 7 heavy gun tanks.
I didn't mean the divisions sent in October 1943-January 1944, but those sent from January to May 11944. And if the High Command could send to Army Group South divisions from Army Groups Center and North when Army Group South needed them, why couldn't send them West, where the invasion was expected?
Okay...then what happens on 22 June 1944 when BAGRATION strikes an even weaker HG-M...and there are no reinforcements closer than the West to help recover the situation? Yet again, it is robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#319

Post by Cult Icon » 09 Aug 2021, 21:44

Juan G. C. wrote:
07 Aug 2021, 18:51
My apologies if I am being repetitive. As I previously said, I was searching for a way to defeat the Normandy landings, and, as I am no military expert, I ask here if this or that way could have been successful.
This has been going on for months, in at least 3 threads.. This is ultimately a "finger pointing to the moon " question, only speculation. Any self-procliamed expert here is a fraud. What boils down is if there were a lot more resources and a different plan to coordinate a more effective response. You will never get a sure thing.

IMHO the only thing that can stop this curiosity bug plaguing your mind is to work on June 1944. You caught me at a time where I was doing just that, and after a little posting here and finishing up readings on XXX Corps and Lehr, this question has ceased to be interesting to me as a consequence.

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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#320

Post by Juan G. C. » 11 Aug 2021, 15:54

Richard Anderson wrote:
07 Aug 2021, 19:08
Having a force adequate to hold a defensive line does not actually mean other forces are freed. Some might be and some might not be.
At least Manstein believed forces would have been freed. It would have been a quite drastical shortening, the length of the front would have been practically halved. But I am no expert, I don't know whether or how many forces could have been freed.
Sure, but your example was of a large number of operational tanks intervening at the point where the opposition had a small number of operational tanks. I am not clear that the reverse is true?
You are clear. But would that have precluded any success, not even stopping the offensive before it was stopped IOTL? After all, Manstein managed to mount a counterattack and stop their advance before Uman and Vinnitsa even without shortening the front.
Okay...then what happens on 22 June 1944 when BAGRATION strikes an even weaker HG-M...and there are no reinforcements closer than the West to help recover the situation? Yet again, it is robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I doubt that in this scenario Operation Bagration would have taken place as it did IOTL, as the situation would have been different (no Byelorussian bulge), although of course the Soviets would have started an offensive to coincide with the Normandy landings. And Army Group Center wouldn't have been weaker than IOTL, because the forces sent West ITTL were sent to Army Group South ITTL. If necessary, the Germans can withdraw from the northern Baltic countries and hold a front more or less from Riga to the Southern Bug, for example.

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Aida1
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#321

Post by Aida1 » 06 Nov 2022, 10:57

EKB wrote:
06 Jun 2021, 06:11
Relevant to this thread but not mentioned is another enduring myth: that Auftragstaktik was a key feature of Germany’s World War II land battles. Auftragstaktik is a buzzword used by admiring staff officers, probably more often now than eighty years ago.

There might be references to Auftragstaktik in some historical documents, but was not defined consistently. There is no proof it trickled down to the masses of German troops. No testimony to substantiate a notion that the majority of German soldiers were informed that Auftragstaktik was a battle drill, cultural movement, or policy. Some veterans questioned after the war replied that they had no recollection of that word being used in service.

Published this year was “The German Way of War” by Jaap Brouwer, who reframes the evacuation of German troops from Sicily and Normandy as a moral victory through Auftragstaktik. However, he neglects to account for the reasons why the British were able to carry out a mass evacuation of France in 1940. Brouwer implies that individual initiative was a quality almost exclusive to German soldiers, and which he sometimes confuses with racist ideals of national superiority that the Nazis constantly evoked to motivate the troops. Throughout the book, Auftragstaktik is used like wallpaper to cover the less flattering implications.

Police states want obedience and seldom encourage concepts like decentralized control, or other forms of free thinking. Yet we still have pied pipers who won’t let go of delusions which insist that German armed forces could easily implement ideas that were anathema to the Nazi political machine.
You are wrong. One illustration here.
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Aida1
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#322

Post by Aida1 » 06 Nov 2022, 11:03

Another example of Auftragstaktik in a trainings document of the Hitlerjugend division.
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Aida1
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Re: Rundstedt's central reserve

#323

Post by Aida1 » 06 Nov 2022, 11:18

A page from a training document from the Hitlerjugend division where the notion 'Auftragstaktik is specfically mentioned.
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