HG Div - "Elite"?
- Westphalia1812
- Member
- Posts: 575
- Joined: 03 Jul 2019, 21:01
- Location: Germany
HG Div - "Elite"?
Good evening,
the HG Div is often referred to as an elite or "crack" division in the literature. Looking at the performance and the strenght of this division during the Italian campaign, however, I cannot understand how one could describe this formation as an elite outfit. The division wasn't even complete when HUSKY began. The situation didn't improve very much after that, even after Salerno, and the unit did not get much time to rest before being send to the Anzio beachhead.
AFAIK HG archieved the top score in the QJFM model. Was there something special about this formation that I don't recognize?
(Repost, I posted it in the wrong sub)
the HG Div is often referred to as an elite or "crack" division in the literature. Looking at the performance and the strenght of this division during the Italian campaign, however, I cannot understand how one could describe this formation as an elite outfit. The division wasn't even complete when HUSKY began. The situation didn't improve very much after that, even after Salerno, and the unit did not get much time to rest before being send to the Anzio beachhead.
AFAIK HG archieved the top score in the QJFM model. Was there something special about this formation that I don't recognize?
(Repost, I posted it in the wrong sub)
I love myself way more than I love you
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
-
- Member
- Posts: 3211
- Joined: 01 May 2006, 20:52
- Location: UK
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Hi Pascal,Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑20 Jul 2021, 18:40the HG Div is often referred to as an elite or "crack" division in the literature.
Is it, can you offer some examples?
I think when first encountered by the British in Tunisia there was confusion between HG troops and paratroops - maybe that continued into Husky, etc.
I'll have a look in some books and get back to you.
Regards
Tom
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Quick Google search throws up Ian Baxter (ha!), Doug Nash, Peter Tsouras calling it elite. And that's just with a few minutes of looking.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
-
- Member
- Posts: 3211
- Joined: 01 May 2006, 20:52
- Location: UK
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
I don't know about later in the war, but in Sicily in 1943 it was described in US OH as:
Regards
Tom
https://history.army.mil/html/books/072 ... _72-16.pdfThe German troops were divided into two divisions, the 15th Panzer Grenadier and the Hermann Goering Panzer. They formed the
hard core of Sicily’s defenses. The 15th Panzer Grenadier Division was essentially combat ready, but the Hermann Goering Division was significantly understrength and contained some inexperienced personnel.
Regards
Tom
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Hello, everyone
The "General Göring" Regiment, formed in 1935 (originating from 1933) and upgraded to the "Hermann Göring" Division in 1942, was to Göring what the Leibstandarte "Adolf Hitler" was to Hitler: a bodyguard unit. So it was considered elite before even entering combat.
See for example: viewtopic.php?f=81&t=214892#p2292476
Cheers,
Ivan
The "General Göring" Regiment, formed in 1935 (originating from 1933) and upgraded to the "Hermann Göring" Division in 1942, was to Göring what the Leibstandarte "Adolf Hitler" was to Hitler: a bodyguard unit. So it was considered elite before even entering combat.
See for example: viewtopic.php?f=81&t=214892#p2292476
Cheers,
Ivan
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
I'm certainly not arguing that calling them 'elite' was right, just providing examples of where they are called elite. Doug Nash is on Twitter, maybe get his view thereTom from Cornwall wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 17:18I don't know about later in the war, but in Sicily in 1943 it was described in US OH as:
https://history.army.mil/html/books/072 ... _72-16.pdfThe German troops were divided into two divisions, the 15th Panzer Grenadier and the Hermann Goering Panzer. They formed the
hard core of Sicily’s defenses. The 15th Panzer Grenadier Division was essentially combat ready, but the Hermann Goering Division was significantly understrength and contained some inexperienced personnel.
Regards
Tom
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
This is the most detailed unit history (before the Kurkowski haters pop in) in english. I read bits, didn't get a chance to read it in full. :
https://www.amazon.com/History-Fallschi ... 0921991258
It's a bit like the Leibstandarte or G.D., I see it as competitor to Himmler's WSS. Hermann Goering's politically reliable group of men. This was expanded into a Panzerkorps late in the war. Reality did not match appearances.
https://www.amazon.com/History-Fallschi ... 0921991258
It's a bit like the Leibstandarte or G.D., I see it as competitor to Himmler's WSS. Hermann Goering's politically reliable group of men. This was expanded into a Panzerkorps late in the war. Reality did not match appearances.
- Martin_Schenkel
- Member
- Posts: 164
- Joined: 29 Aug 2005, 09:08
- Location: Canada
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
A while back I read "The Battle of Sicily: How the Allies lost their chance for Total Victory (Mitcham Jr, von Stauffenberg, 1991), and IIRC it seemed critical of the performance of Division CO at the time (Paul Conrath). A new Division, in the early stages of combat experience, with a less than stellar commander, is probably not going to give great results. It seems their performance was often sloppy and un-coordinated, they were inexperienced and under-strength, and often ignoring orders from above. I can't speak to what the Division's reputation became after that period.
- Westphalia1812
- Member
- Posts: 575
- Joined: 03 Jul 2019, 21:01
- Location: Germany
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Sorry for answering that late, I was/am on a vacation. As already said, Douglas Nash calls the division elite. But at the moment I cannot find many more examples. I think what I meant (but didn't write... ) was that the division is often called elite when comparing 'elite' formations of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS (HG and GD as the elite divisions of the WM, next to the Gebirgs- and Fallschirmjäger).Tom from Cornwall wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021, 17:19Hi Pascal,Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑20 Jul 2021, 18:40the HG Div is often referred to as an elite or "crack" division in the literature.
Is it, can you offer some examples?
I think when first encountered by the British in Tunisia there was confusion between HG troops and paratroops - maybe that continued into Husky, etc.
I'll have a look in some books and get back to you.
Regards
Tom
I love myself way more than I love you
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
- Westphalia1812
- Member
- Posts: 575
- Joined: 03 Jul 2019, 21:01
- Location: Germany
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
,,The Panzer-Division ‘Hermann Göring’ was a peculiar unit whose origins could be traced back to the mid-1930s. A Luftwaffe formation, it was effectively the private army of the Reichsmarshall, and was considered a ‘politicized’ – if not a fanatical – outfit. In 1943 it was deployed in Sicily where it suffered heavy losses. As Göring’s pride and joy, it was one of the first in line when it came to reinforcements and new equipment. Therefore, during the time it had spent reforming near Naples the division had regained much of its combat effectiveness. Still, it was chronically short of tanks and vehicles." (Salerno 1943, Osprey, p. 21)Tom from Cornwall wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021, 17:19Hi Pascal,Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑20 Jul 2021, 18:40the HG Div is often referred to as an elite or "crack" division in the literature.
Is it, can you offer some examples?
Bruce Quarrie wrote a short divisional history of the HG calling the formation elite.
I love myself way more than I love you
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
- Westphalia1812
- Member
- Posts: 575
- Joined: 03 Jul 2019, 21:01
- Location: Germany
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
That makes sense. I once saw a Wochenschau reel showing training sessions of the HG (portraying the unit as modern and elite/special as possible). I try to find that one.Ivan Ž. wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 17:29Hello, everyone
The "General Göring" Regiment, formed in 1935 (originating from 1933) and upgraded to the "Hermann Göring" Division in 1942, was to Göring what the Leibstandarte "Adolf Hitler" was to Hitler: a bodyguard unit. So it was considered elite before even entering combat.
See for example: viewtopic.php?f=81&t=214892#p2292476
Cheers,
Ivan
Ps: Here it is https://www.net-film.ru/en/film-62839/
I love myself way more than I love you
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
The music playing at 00:31, during Göring's inspection of the unit, is Rode's "Der Jäger aus Kurpfalz", which was Göring's signature march and his bodyguard's parade march (the same as Fürst's "Badenweiler-Marsch" was Hitler's signature march and his bodyguard's parade march).Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑09 Aug 2021, 10:56I once saw a Wochenschau reel showing training sessions of the HG (portraying the unit as modern and elite/special as possible). I try to find that one.
Ps: Here it is https://www.net-film.ru/en/film-62839/
Cheers,
Ivan
-
- Host - Allied sections
- Posts: 10057
- Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 21:31
- Location: USA
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Martin_Schenkel wrote: ↑31 Jul 2021, 18:46A while back I read "The Battle of Sicily: How the Allies lost their chance for Total Victory (Mitcham Jr, von Stauffenberg, 1991), and IIRC it seemed critical of the performance of Division CO at the time (Paul Conrath). A new Division, in the early stages of combat experience, with a less than stellar commander, is probably not going to give great results. It seems their performance was often sloppy and un-coordinated, they were inexperienced and under-strength, and often ignoring orders from above. I can't speak to what the Division's reputation became after that period.
The formation designated Herman Goering had been effectively destroyed in the Tunisian campaign. Imeadiatly 'reformed' the several components were assembled at different locations and collected as a division in Sicilly a few very short weeks before the Allied invasion there. The division had just a few days train as a division. The division command staff & the regiment or battle group staffs had less than a week to either train or function as command staffs. While the infantry, armored, artillery. & other battalions & the HQ had plenty of combat veterans, & were high quality men the division had command & control problems during the Sicilian campaign. The best battle group was Gruppe Schmalz which at least held together in its counter attacks in the first few days and after. The other two principle battle groups fell apart in the first 48 hours & their counter attacks against the beachead held by infantry failed. Basics like route reconnaissance of the approaches to the designated battle areas, simple map exercises to orient the commander & staff to the army & division role, & signals plan had not been completed. The veteran led companies that did make contact gave the green US soldiers a scare, but had to shift over to the defensive as the second day of the campaign spun out. The commanders & staff were not up to the task of a coordinated attackPascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑09 Aug 2021, 10:44
,,The Panzer-Division ‘Hermann Göring’ was a peculiar unit whose origins could be traced back to the mid-1930s. A Luftwaffe formation, it was effectively the private army of the Reichsmarshall, and was considered a ‘politicized’ – if not a fanatical – outfit. In 1943 it was deployed in Sicily where it suffered heavy losses. As Göring’s pride and joy, it was one of the first in line when it came to reinforcements and new equipment. Therefore, during the time it had spent reforming near Naples the division had regained much of its combat effectiveness. Still, it was chronically short of tanks and vehicles." (Salerno 1943, Osprey, p. 21)
Bruce Quarrie wrote a short divisional history of the HG calling the formation elite.
Two months later at Salerno the HG held up in a stiff fight as it counterattacked the veteran British corps there. Tho it & the 15th PzG Div failed to make a decisive dent in the British half of the beachhead.
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Division HG fought in the Eastern Front in 44-45 and during the battles for Warsaw. divisions HG1 and HG2 were established along with the Panzerkorps HG corps HQ.
- Westphalia1812
- Member
- Posts: 575
- Joined: 03 Jul 2019, 21:01
- Location: Germany
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Thanks for your detailed description of the problems HG faced during HUSKY. Would it be right to say that during the Salerno landings, the HG Div was complete? From reading about AVALANCHE it seems that HG wasn't that decisive for the german defenses (but I guess that most of the literature [especially Osprey] mostly focuses on the 16. PzDiv.).Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 03:44Martin_Schenkel wrote: ↑31 Jul 2021, 18:46A while back I read "The Battle of Sicily: How the Allies lost their chance for Total Victory (Mitcham Jr, von Stauffenberg, 1991), and IIRC it seemed critical of the performance of Division CO at the time (Paul Conrath). A new Division, in the early stages of combat experience, with a less than stellar commander, is probably not going to give great results. It seems their performance was often sloppy and un-coordinated, they were inexperienced and under-strength, and often ignoring orders from above. I can't speak to what the Division's reputation became after that period.Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑09 Aug 2021, 10:44
,,The Panzer-Division ‘Hermann Göring’ was a peculiar unit whose origins could be traced back to the mid-1930s. A Luftwaffe formation, it was effectively the private army of the Reichsmarshall, and was considered a ‘politicized’ – if not a fanatical – outfit. In 1943 it was deployed in Sicily where it suffered heavy losses. As Göring’s pride and joy, it was one of the first in line when it came to reinforcements and new equipment. Therefore, during the time it had spent reforming near Naples the division had regained much of its combat effectiveness. Still, it was chronically short of tanks and vehicles." (Salerno 1943, Osprey, p. 21)
Bruce Quarrie wrote a short divisional history of the HG calling the formation elite.
Two months later at Salerno the HG held up in a stiff fight as it counterattacked the veteran British corps there. Tho it & the 15th PzG Div failed to make a decisive dent in the British half of the beachhead.
Last edited by Westphalia1812 on 12 Aug 2021, 07:30, edited 1 time in total.
I love myself way more than I love you
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today