Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

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Kelvin
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Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#1

Post by Kelvin » 11 Aug 2021, 08:08

Hello, I know Soviet had Sapper Army in her OOB, they are formed with several Sapper Brigade, What I want to know their scale of equipment in this Brigade or Sapper battalion,

Normally, German Pionier Bataillon (3 x companies), had 1140 x Teller Antitank Mines, 1935 x Schutzen antipersonnel mines, 9 x Flammwerfer 35, 1083 kg explosives, 60 x power saw, 18 welding sets, 74 rolls barbed wires and 222 x rubber assault boats. ( some sources also mentions it had 6 x 8cm Gr.W, but no sure)

I just want to know equipment status of Soviet sapper battalion or brigade in accordance with abover German examples, anyone can help on that ? Thank

And so call Flamethrower battalion had 180 x flamethrowers, is it belongs to sappar battalon or brigade ? How many men in this units ? Thank

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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#2

Post by Art » 11 Aug 2021, 14:08

Sapper armies of 1941 were essentially labor units designed for fortification constructions in rear areas. They possessed no combat functions, so mines or flamethrowers were redundant. Some amount of explosives and fuses were allocated for demolition and construction works. Most equipment were hand tools like spades, picks, axes, crowbars etc.
Theoretically the sapper brigade was to consist of HQ (43 military personnel and 33 civilians), 19 sapper battalions (497 men), mechanization detachment (102 men) and auto-tractor battalion (391 men).


Kelvin
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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#3

Post by Kelvin » 11 Aug 2021, 14:57

Art wrote:
11 Aug 2021, 14:08
Sapper armies of 1941 were essentially labor units designed for fortification constructions in rear areas. They possessed no combat functions, so mines or flamethrowers were redundant. Some amount of explosives and fuses were allocated for demolition and construction works. Most equipment were hand tools like spades, picks, axes, crowbars etc.
Theoretically the sapper brigade was to consist of HQ (43 military personnel and 33 civilians), 19 sapper battalions (497 men), mechanization detachment (102 men) and auto-tractor battalion (391 men).
Hello, Art, thank for your information. if Sapper Army is only for fortification works in rear but did Soviet Army had something like German Pionier Btl. During the invasion of USSR in 1941, not counting divisional units, German engaged 51 x Pionier Btl. for that campaign in the summer of 1941. Thank

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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#4

Post by Art » 11 Aug 2021, 19:09

You can consult official order of battle:
http://teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/BoevojSos ... -1941.html
At the war start there were 18 GHQ engineer regiments, IIRC each of them formed two independent engineer battalions at mobilization, and about 20 separate GHQ engineer and sapper battalions. That was not much compared with organic sapper units in corps, divisions etc. There were also GHQ bridging and construction units which belonged to the engineer arm. Further on, when corps were disbanded their organic sapper/engineer battalions became GHQ units. When tank divisions were disbanded their organic pontoon battalions became GHQ units. Hence an increase in the number of separate GHQ battalions.

The German Army didn't have engineer units organic to corps at this point, as opposed to Red Army which had strong sapper/engineer battalions at corps level.

Kelvin
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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#5

Post by Kelvin » 13 Aug 2021, 07:56

Art wrote:
11 Aug 2021, 19:09
You can consult official order of battle:
http://teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/BoevojSos ... -1941.html
At the war start there were 18 GHQ engineer regiments, IIRC each of them formed two independent engineer battalions at mobilization, and about 20 separate GHQ engineer and sapper battalions. That was not much compared with organic sapper units in corps, divisions etc. There were also GHQ bridging and construction units which belonged to the engineer arm. Further on, when corps were disbanded their organic sapper/engineer battalions became GHQ units. When tank divisions were disbanded their organic pontoon battalions became GHQ units. Hence an increase in the number of separate GHQ battalions.

The German Army didn't have engineer units organic to corps at this point, as opposed to Red Army which had strong sapper/engineer battalions at corps level.

Hi, Art, thank for your link, may I ask if you have table of equipment of Soviet Engineer battalion either in June 1941 or 1942 ? Thank

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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#6

Post by Art » 14 Aug 2021, 09:47

As far as I can see in 1941 there were at least two different organizations of the separate engineer battalion (012/9 and 012/14) and two different organizations of the separate motorized engineer battalion (012/10 and 012/11) as well as the separate army sapper battalion (012/45). I haven't seen their tables of organization, so I don't know what was the difference between them and how many units of each type were formed. I suspect that every of 18 peace-time engineer regiments formed one engineer and one motorized engineer battalion at mobilization in addition to already existing 19 separate engineer and sapper battalions, but that need verification.

The thing that can be easily found is the strength and equipment of the separate motorized engineer battalion (TO/E 012/11) as of autumn 1941:
53 officers, 102 NCOs, 454 privates, total 609 men, 518 rifles and 9 carbines, 43 pistols, 11 DP light machine guns, 92 GAZ-AA (1.5 ton) trucks and 7 ZIS-5 (3 ton) trucks, 6 pickup trucks, 1 motor workshop, 2 5-AK or RB types radios, 2 RUS-3 or RAF type radios
Engineer equipment, materials and instruments:
3 small inflatable boats (LMN)
NLP light bridging park
36 swimming costumes
3 LSR sawing mills
1 hand winch
11 motor saws
3 compressor stations with accessories and spare parts kits
1 pneumatic instrument kit
1 2A drop hammer kit
3 AES-3 electric power stations
20 electric torches
1000 detonators
9 train detonators
9+6 clockwork detonators
500 anti-tank mines
6 mine searchers
3 No.63 demolition instrument kits
3 No.64 demolition instrument kits
15 No.71 explosives kits
3 PM-1 blasting units
36 summer camouflage suits
36 winter camouflage suits
3 universal camouflage masks
30 No.3 camouflage nets
1 chain pump
1 well shaft
4 water bags 100 liters
1 water pump
1 water reservoir 1000 liters
1 soft water cistern 1200 liters
9 chisels
18 mattocks
27 crowbars
291 sapper spades
43 saws
18 short saws
223 axes

plus ammunition, instruments, chemical protection materials etc.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454367191
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=455152775

Apparently, equipment of non-motorized engineer battalions included some road machines (tractor graders), but, again, I don't have detailed info.

Kelvin
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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#7

Post by Kelvin » 14 Aug 2021, 12:25

Art wrote:
14 Aug 2021, 09:47
As far as I can see in 1941 there were at least two different organizations of the separate engineer battalion (012/9 and 012/14) and two different organizations of the separate motorized engineer battalion (012/10 and 012/11) as well as the separate army sapper battalion (012/45). I haven't seen their tables of organization, so I don't know what was the difference between them and how many units of each type were formed. I suspect that every of 18 peace-time engineer regiments formed one engineer and one motorized engineer battalion at mobilization in addition to already existing 19 separate engineer and sapper battalions, but that need verification.

The thing that can be easily found is the strength and equipment of the separate motorized engineer battalion (TO/E 012/11) as of autumn 1941:
53 officers, 102 NCOs, 454 privates, total 609 men, 518 rifles and 9 carbines, 43 pistols, 11 DP light machine guns, 92 GAZ-AA (1.5 ton) trucks and 7 ZIS-5 (3 ton) trucks, 6 pickup trucks, 1 motor workshop, 2 5-AK or RB types radios, 2 RUS-3 or RAF type radios
Engineer equipment, materials and instruments:
3 small inflatable boats (LMN)
NLP light bridging park
36 swimming costumes
3 LSR sawing mills
1 hand winch
11 motor saws
3 compressor stations with accessories and spare parts kits
1 pneumatic instrument kit
1 2A drop hammer kit
3 AES-3 electric power stations
20 electric torches
1000 detonators
9 train detonators
9+6 clockwork detonators
500 anti-tank mines
6 mine searchers
3 No.63 demolition instrument kits
3 No.64 demolition instrument kits
15 No.71 explosives kits
3 PM-1 blasting units
36 summer camouflage suits
36 winter camouflage suits
3 universal camouflage masks
30 No.3 camouflage nets
1 chain pump
1 well shaft
4 water bags 100 liters
1 water pump
1 water reservoir 1000 liters
1 soft water cistern 1200 liters
9 chisels
18 mattocks
27 crowbars
291 sapper spades
43 saws
18 short saws
223 axes

plus ammunition, instruments, chemical protection materials etc.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454367191
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=455152775

Apparently, equipment of non-motorized engineer battalions included some road machines (tractor graders), but, again, I don't have detailed info.
Hello, Art, very detailed information, thank so much for your help. Very much appreciated.

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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#8

Post by Art » 15 Aug 2021, 16:19

Addition to a murky story of pre-war engineer organization. Prior to 1940 Red Army's GHQ engineer troops consisted of separate battalions and companies. In April 1940 a commission of the Main Military Council recommended combining existing engineer units into peace-time engineer and pontoon regiments. In August 1940 deputy COGS Smorodinov presented a plan for reorganization which called for converting existing 22 engineer battalions and separate companies into 24 engineer regiments and existing 21 pontoon battalion into 14 pontoon regiments.
The peace-time engineer regiment would consist of a motorized engineer battalion (two engineer and one technical company), an engineer battalion (engineer, bridge and road company), a technical battalion (electrotechnical, camouflage, and hydrotechnical companies) and a light NLP bridging park, total about 1000 men
The peace-time pontoon regiment would consist of three pontoon battalions, a technical and a park company, total 924 men.
In addition two heavy pontoon regiment at Amur River (each 1135 men) and on pontoon battalion in the Transbaikal District (350 men) and some smaller units were to retain their present organization.
For some reason inexplicable this plan was executed only in the first half of 1941, but instead of 22 engineer regiments proposed by Smorodinov only 18 were formed. On the other hand the order of battle indicates presence of 18 additional separate engineer, motorized engineer and sapper battalions on 22.6.41. It is not clear when they were formed and what was their organization.
Apparently at mobilization each engineer regiment formed one engineer and one motorized engineer battalions, one bridging park and several specialized companies, each standard pontoon regiment - three pontoon battalion (each with a N2P bridging park). Again, it is not clear what would happen with regimental HQ after mobilization - if they were supposed to be employed somehow or not.

A minimal complement of GHQ engineer units assigned to each field army was planned before the war as one engineer battalion, one pontoon battalion, hydrotechnical, water supply, camouflage, and electrotechnical companies, one drilling detachment and a reserve pontoon park. If necessary the army could be additionally reinforced by motorized engineer or pontoon battalions, heavy pontoon regiments and smaller units. The number of GHQ engineer units deployed at mobilization was more or less sufficient for such allocation.

On the negative side engineer units suffered from a lack of specialized equipment and a large shortfall of engineer officers (which was about 1/3 of the authorized strength in June 41). Both GHQ engineer units and organic battalion of corps and divisions were constantly employed at various construction works to an effect that their ability to perform titular functions was dubious.
Already mentioned commission of April 1940 recommended to withdraw engineer troops from all kind of construction employment and perform construction of fortified regions with dedicated construction troops or civil work force, which remained nothing but vain wishes.

Kelvin
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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#9

Post by Kelvin » 16 Aug 2021, 05:14

Art wrote:
15 Aug 2021, 16:19
Addition to a murky story of pre-war engineer organization. Prior to 1940 Red Army's GHQ engineer troops consisted of separate battalions and companies. In April 1940 a commission of the Main Military Council recommended combining existing engineer units into peace-time engineer and pontoon regiments. In August 1940 deputy COGS Smorodinov presented a plan for reorganization which called for converting existing 22 engineer battalions and separate companies into 24 engineer regiments and existing 21 pontoon battalion into 14 pontoon regiments.
The peace-time engineer regiment would consist of a motorized engineer battalion (two engineer and one technical company), an engineer battalion (engineer, bridge and road company), a technical battalion (electrotechnical, camouflage, and hydrotechnical companies) and a light NLP bridging park, total about 1000 men
The peace-time pontoon regiment would consist of three pontoon battalions, a technical and a park company, total 924 men.
In addition two heavy pontoon regiment at Amur River (each 1135 men) and on pontoon battalion in the Transbaikal District (350 men) and some smaller units were to retain their present organization.
For some reason inexplicable this plan was executed only in the first half of 1941, but instead of 22 engineer regiments proposed by Smorodinov only 18 were formed. On the other hand the order of battle indicates presence of 18 additional separate engineer, motorized engineer and sapper battalions on 22.6.41. It is not clear when they were formed and what was their organization.
Apparently at mobilization each engineer regiment formed one engineer and one motorized engineer battalions, one bridging park and several specialized companies, each standard pontoon regiment - three pontoon battalion (each with a N2P bridging park). Again, it is not clear what would happen with regimental HQ after mobilization - if they were supposed to be employed somehow or not.

A minimal complement of GHQ engineer units assigned to each field army was planned before the war as one engineer battalion, one pontoon battalion, hydrotechnical, water supply, camouflage, and electrotechnical companies, one drilling detachment and a reserve pontoon park. If necessary the army could be additionally reinforced by motorized engineer or pontoon battalions, heavy pontoon regiments and smaller units. The number of GHQ engineer units deployed at mobilization was more or less sufficient for such allocation.

On the negative side engineer units suffered from a lack of specialized equipment and a large shortfall of engineer officers (which was about 1/3 of the authorized strength in June 41). Both GHQ engineer units and organic battalion of corps and divisions were constantly employed at various construction works to an effect that their ability to perform titular functions was dubious.
Already mentioned commission of April 1940 recommended to withdraw engineer troops from all kind of construction employment and perform construction of fortified regions with dedicated construction troops or civil work force, which remained nothing but vain wishes.
Hello, Art, thank for your detailed information. BTW, is it flamethrower battalion with 180 x flamethrowers was somewhat the function of combat engineer ? Thank

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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#10

Post by Art » 16 Aug 2021, 17:34

Some more information on the authorized strength of various engineer units in 1941:

Separate engineer battalion - TO/E (Shtat) 012/9 - 54 officers + 112 NCOs + 726 privates = 892 men, 6 riding and 40 draft horses, 1 car, 19 cargo trucks and 11 special purpose trucks, 28 tractors, 787 rifles and carbines, 12 light machine guns
Separate motorized rifle battalion - TO/E 012/11 - 48 officers + 90 NCOs + 476 privates = 614 men, 6 cars, 55 cargo and 50 special purpose trucks, 527 rifles and carbines, 11 light machine guns
(another version) - 51 officers + 87 NCOs + 468 privates = 606 men, 61 cargo and 60 special purpose trucks, 527 rifles and carbines 11 light machine guns
Separate engineer construction battalion - TO/E 012/704 - 58 officers + 110 NCOs + 690 privates = 858 men, 12 riding and 57 draft horses, 1 car, 9 cargo trucks and 6 special purpose trucks, 29 tractors, 2 motorcycles, 790 rifles and carbines
Separate engineer battalion - TO/E 012/703 - 58 officers + 116 NCOs + 684 privates = 858 men, 13 riding and 71 draft horses, 2 cars, 31 cargo and 9 special purpose trucks, 22 tractors, 6 motorcycles, 765 rifles and carbines, 12 light machine guns
Separate sapper battalion (GHQ) - TO/E 012/45 - 42 officers + 95 NCOs + 616 privates = 753 men, 37 riding and 257 draft horses, 1 car, 661 rifles and carbines, 13 machine pistols
Separate sapper battalion (originally organic to rifle corps) - TO/E 04/802 - 58 officers + 119 NCOs + 723 privates = 900 men, 18 riding and 60 draft horses, 2 cars, 32 cargo and 48 special purpose trucks, 45 tractors, 1 motorcycle w/ machine gun, 801 rifles and carbines, 12 light machine guns.

All numbers are from report on composition and numerical strength of the South Front in November 1941 and probably reflect amendments made by that moment.

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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#11

Post by Art » 16 Aug 2021, 17:43

Organization of the army engineer battalion (wartime) TO/E 012/101 as of 1.1.1942:

44 officers + 70 NCOs + 417 privates = 531 men, 24 draft horses, 1 car, 11 cargo and 6 special purpose trucks, 8 tractors, 431 rifles and carbines, 9 light machine guns, 2 road graders, 1 road machines kit, 1 air compressor, 2 sawing mills, 2 electric power stations, 1 diving station.

Command (3 men)
Party&Political section (2)
Staff (4)
Administrative and supply section (5)
HQ platoon (17) with 1 communication and 2 scouting squads
3 engineer companies (116) each of 3 platoons each of 4 squads
Technical company (117) with road, bridge, forestry, electrotechnical platoons and a diving station
Service elements (45)

This TO/E apparently replaced earlier organization from 1941.

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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#12

Post by Art » 18 Aug 2021, 10:22

Kelvin wrote:
16 Aug 2021, 05:14
Hello, Art, thank for your detailed information. BTW, is it flamethrower battalion with 180 x flamethrowers was somewhat the function of combat engineer ?
Which exactly? There were separate flamethrower battalions, there were those that were part of engineer brigades in the second half of the war. Flamethrowers were generally seen as weapon of chemical troops, but could be included into units of other arms (infantry, tanks, fortified regions, engineer etc).

Kelvin
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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#13

Post by Kelvin » 19 Aug 2021, 08:23

Kelvin wrote:
14 Aug 2021, 12:25
Art wrote:
14 Aug 2021, 09:47
As far as I can see in 1941 there were at least two different organizations of the separate engineer battalion (012/9 and 012/14) and two different organizations of the separate motorized engineer battalion (012/10 and 012/11) as well as the separate army sapper battalion (012/45). I haven't seen their tables of organization, so I don't know what was the difference between them and how many units of each type were formed. I suspect that every of 18 peace-time engineer regiments formed one engineer and one motorized engineer battalion at mobilization in addition to already existing 19 separate engineer and sapper battalions, but that need verification.

The thing that can be easily found is the strength and equipment of the separate motorized engineer battalion (TO/E 012/11) as of autumn 1941:
53 officers, 102 NCOs, 454 privates, total 609 men, 518 rifles and 9 carbines, 43 pistols, 11 DP light machine guns, 92 GAZ-AA (1.5 ton) trucks and 7 ZIS-5 (3 ton) trucks, 6 pickup trucks, 1 motor workshop, 2 5-AK or RB types radios, 2 RUS-3 or RAF type radios
Engineer equipment, materials and instruments:
3 small inflatable boats (LMN)
NLP light bridging park
36 swimming costumes
3 LSR sawing mills
1 hand winch
11 motor saws
3 compressor stations with accessories and spare parts kits
1 pneumatic instrument kit
1 2A drop hammer kit
3 AES-3 electric power stations
20 electric torches
1000 detonators
9 train detonators
9+6 clockwork detonators
500 anti-tank mines
6 mine searchers
3 No.63 demolition instrument kits
3 No.64 demolition instrument kits
15 No.71 explosives kits
3 PM-1 blasting units
36 summer camouflage suits
36 winter camouflage suits
3 universal camouflage masks
30 No.3 camouflage nets
1 chain pump
1 well shaft
4 water bags 100 liters
1 water pump
1 water reservoir 1000 liters
1 soft water cistern 1200 liters
9 chisels
18 mattocks
27 crowbars
291 sapper spades
43 saws
18 short saws
223 axes

plus ammunition, instruments, chemical protection materials etc.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454367191
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=455152775

Apparently, equipment of non-motorized engineer battalions included some road machines (tractor graders), but, again, I don't have detailed info.
Hello, Art, very detailed information, thank so much for your help. Very much appreciated.

Hi, Art, for flamethrower battalion, with 180 flamethrower should be like artillery force, very powerful.

But for engineer battalion TOE, they should have barbed wire roll, and barbed wire cutter, any missing ? Thank

Art
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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#14

Post by Art » 19 Aug 2021, 10:16

36 wire cutters. No wire in the list.

Kelvin
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Re: Equipment of Soviet engineer brigade in Army 1942

#15

Post by Kelvin » 19 Aug 2021, 12:57

Art wrote:
19 Aug 2021, 10:16
36 wire cutters. No wire in the list.
Hi, Art, thank so much for your help.

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