Richard Anderson wrote: ↑27 Aug 2021 02:01
Yes, exactly. Unless you and glenn239 were not discussing combat aircraft, I was not the only one "discussing combat aircraft in this thread".
Well, inasmuch as 'combat aircraft' are a subset of overall aircraft, yes.
My point was that glenn239's figure of '5,500' aircraft seems to match the number of German combat + transport aircraft deployed within operational
Gruppen and
Staffeln for the dates 5/17/43 and 5/31/44, as found in Price's
Luftwaffe Data Book, reproduced
here.
Richard Anderson wrote: ↑27 Aug 2021 02:01
No, I am making the argument, which is why I made the statement that operational aircraft was the important metric.
I agree with you. I would only add the caveat that a larger dataset would be needed than just 1-2 dates per year to reach conclusions about average Luftwaffe serviceability rates within operational units.
Richard Anderson wrote: ↑27 Aug 2021 02:01
Actually we can...or we can at least get an estimate, based upon the operational aircraft figures with operational units in the ETOUSA and applying them to "theaters vs Germany".
I only meant that we cannot arrive at a '73 to 74 percent' estimate.
Richard Anderson wrote: ↑27 Aug 2021 02:01
Unless you think operational status varied significantly between the Eighth, Ninth, Twelfth, and Fifteenth Air Forces?
For heavy bombers, no. For fighters, I would assume that a smaller share would be in maintenance/repair outside of their units, if only because of their lesser ability to return to base after suffering catastrophic damage. For medium/light bombers, I would guess they'd be somewhere in the middle.
Richard Anderson wrote: ↑27 Aug 2021 02:01
Well, Fifteenth Air Force, but I see where you are going.
Yes, I meant for the ETOUSA.
Well, 60% for 11/30/1944, yes. Here is a summary of the basic breakdown:
Total '1st Line' heavy bombers in the ETO: 3,444 (100% of total)
Total assigned strength of heavy bomber units: 2,784 (81%)
Total heavy bombers on hand with units: 2,457 (71%)
Total heavy bombers serviceable with units: 2,071 (60%)
My points 1, 2 and 3 are what I assume accounts for the differential between 3,444 and 2,457 (987 bombers).
Richard Anderson wrote: ↑27 Aug 2021 02:01
It was not intended as such and was not intended to impugn anything, so I do apologize if you took it as such.
Thank you, I genuinely appreciate the gesture. It is so rare online.
Richard Anderson wrote: ↑27 Aug 2021 02:01
I am frustrated that we can't seem to agree to a strength and strength definition.
I can understand that. I propose we collaborate to get a proper apples-to-apples comparison.
Richard Anderson wrote: ↑27 Aug 2021 02:01
You have said that the German figures I've quoted are for "operational units". In fact they are for the "Einsatzbereitschaft der Fliegenden Verbände". They appear to be the compiled monthly "Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen", but I have not confirmed that.
I have never seen the
Einsatzbereitschaft der Fliegenden Verbände, but I have dug into the
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, available online
here.
For 11/30/1944, I get:
-2,930 single-engined fighters in 18 combat Jagdgeschwadern: JG1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 11, 26, 27, 51, 52, 53, 54, 76, 77, 300, 301 and 400
-638 single-engined fighters in 2 replacement training Jagdgeschwadern: EJG1 and 2
-52 single-engined fighters in 1 weapons-test Jagdgruppe: JGr.10
For a total of 3,620 single-engined fighters.
Richard Anderson wrote: ↑27 Aug 2021 02:01
How does that differ from the USAAF counts? Because the German counts can include:
1. Some aircraft undergoing heavy maintenance and/or repair in rear depots, and thus be unassigned to operational units
2. Some heavy aircraft still be recently arrived, and thus constitute as-yet 'unassigned' replacements
It doesn't appear to be the case. Regarding aircraft undergoing maintenance and/or repair, the
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen exclude aircraft overhauled/repaired at a higher level than the Gruppe. This is made clear by looking at the monthly flow of aircraft. To give but one example, in November 1944 45 Fw 190As left Jagdgeschwader 301 to undergo 'Überholung'. They were subtracted from the 11/30/1944 strength report.
By inference, we can conclude that aircraft in-theater, but as yet unassigned to Gruppen also aren't counted.
Perhaps the British definitions can help us. They used 4 categories: A to D. Here are their definitions:
Category A - Aircraft operationally serviceable or under inspection in units and
aircraft operationally serviceable complete with war equipment ready for
issue to operational units.
Category B - Aircraft under repair in units which it is anticipated will, in the case
of operational units, become available for operations within 14 days and
in the case of maintenance and repair units will be ready for issue to
operational units within 14 days.
Category C - All new aircraft either boxed or flight delivered which (through lack of
Appendix A items rectifications and modifications) will not pass into
Category B till after 14 days.
Category D - All salvaged aircraft and those undergoing major repair in maintenance
units; some of the Category D aircraft will be long term repair jobs and
some will ultimately have to be written off.
I have highlighted the parts that appear to match the
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen. To illustrate what this meant in practice, on 5/1/1942 the British had the following fighter strength
in Egypt:
-38 squadrons, for an establishment strength of 614 fighter aircraft
-589 aircraft in Cat (A) + 183 in Cat (B), for a total of 772 fighter aircraft
-80 in Cat (C)
-250 in Cat (D)
For a total of 1,102 fighters, 179% of the establishment strength.
The German data approximately corresponds to most of Cat (A) + (B), whereas the American data corresponds to the overall total across the four categories.
Thus, the proper comparison for 11/30/1944 would be:
-USAAF: 2,457 heavy bombers within operational units in the ETO, of which 2,071 were serviceable (84%)
-Luftwaffe: 2,930 single-engined fighters within operational units in the entire Luftwaffe, of which 2,256 (?) were serviceable (77%) - assuming my
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen figure corresponds to yours taken from
Einsatzbereitschaft der Fliegenden Verbände
The figure of 4,454 USAAF singled-engined fighters for 11/30/1944 would match the 2,930 single-engined fighters within operational units,
plus the unknown number of fighters undergoing 'Überholung', those recently accepted by the Luftwaffe now waiting to be issued to the Jagdgeschwadern, and whatever fighters in higher-echelon reserve there were or not.