Yeah, I remember wondering about that years ago...and then promptly hied sown another rabbit hole and forgot to check. Meanwhile, I'm still trying to figure out how the goof got introduced into the SHAEF records.Tom from Cornwall wrote: ↑27 Aug 2021, 23:30Thanks for clearing that up.
It does make sense actually, I was thinking that the July figure looked much too low but in hindsight (a popular ability on this forum!) the original figure for the British captures in June does actually look much too high.
Regards
Tom
German Surrendered in Normandy
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
Standard military issue clerical error.
Leaving aside the opinions of admin personnel, trawling back through the books the anecdotal evidence from witnesses has a fair number of remarks about this or that batch of men in German uniforms surrendering in small groups. From the earliest hours sixth June theres mention of groups of defenders giving up. The Poles or Ossies on OMAHA Beach are a example. References to other large pockets are not yet turning up in my library. 'Roncy' hardly rates a mention let alone detail. Most of what I turned up any where about Roncy are drawn from a single interview with a German NCO commanding a tank & other stragglers.
Did notice there is a volume written by Zeterlling on 'Normandy'. Anyone familiar with this one? Worth my time to hunt out a copy?
Leaving aside the opinions of admin personnel, trawling back through the books the anecdotal evidence from witnesses has a fair number of remarks about this or that batch of men in German uniforms surrendering in small groups. From the earliest hours sixth June theres mention of groups of defenders giving up. The Poles or Ossies on OMAHA Beach are a example. References to other large pockets are not yet turning up in my library. 'Roncy' hardly rates a mention let alone detail. Most of what I turned up any where about Roncy are drawn from a single interview with a German NCO commanding a tank & other stragglers.
Did notice there is a volume written by Zeterlling on 'Normandy'. Anyone familiar with this one? Worth my time to hunt out a copy?
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
Reviewing the German eyewitness accounts I'm sensing a large portion simply decided to take the "Kanada' option.
Exactly how many men passed thru the ranks of 7th Army & Pz Grp West I can't say. A high number is 750k. Rich indicated 150k surrenders outside the Cotientin/Falaise pockets. That means near 20% of the German soldiers passin thru Normandy surrendered individually or in small groups.
Any other thoughts on this?
Exactly how many men passed thru the ranks of 7th Army & Pz Grp West I can't say. A high number is 750k. Rich indicated 150k surrenders outside the Cotientin/Falaise pockets. That means near 20% of the German soldiers passin thru Normandy surrendered individually or in small groups.
Any other thoughts on this?
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
I am not sure what you mean?Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑07 Sep 2021, 21:06Reviewing the German eyewitness accounts I'm sensing a large portion simply decided to take the "Kanada' option.
What do you mean y passing through the ranks? Casualties? Manpower? What is 750k? Without knowing what it is I can't say if it is high or low.Exactly how many men passed thru the ranks of 7th Army & Pz Grp West I can't say. A high number is 750k.
Again, what is passing through? 150k surrenders is 20% of what?Rich indicated 150k surrenders outside the Cotientin/Falaise pockets. That means near 20% of the German soldiers passin thru Normandy surrendered individually or in small groups.
Any other thoughts on this?
My thought is I'm very confused as to what you are asking.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
I was looking at claims or estimate for how many soldiers were part of these two formations, 7th Army & Pz Group West, during the Normandy battle. 750,000 was the high estimate I recalled.
By 'Kanada Option' I was referring to a decision to surrender. Meaning a trip to Canadian PW camps.
By 'Kanada Option' I was referring to a decision to surrender. Meaning a trip to Canadian PW camps.
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
Okay, thanks. I think 750,000 may be a bit high...Ob.West totaled about 1.4 million and included AG-G and all the administrative and security troops in the west.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑08 Sep 2021, 02:59I was looking at claims or estimate for how many soldiers were part of these two formations, 7th Army & Pz Group West, during the Normandy battle. 750,000 was the high estimate I recalled.
Okay, I'll see if I can work out the daily average between the high points of Cherbourg, Roncey, and Falaise.By 'Kanada Option' I was referring to a decision to surrender. Meaning a trip to Canadian PW camps.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
Okay, cumulative PW intake UK/US (as of 2359 for UK until 18 June/as of 2400 for US, unless otherwise indicated):
8 June (as of 1800) - 862/1,314
11 June (as of 0600) - 5,209 (probably total UK and US)/?
12 June - ?/6,766
14 June (as of 1800) - ?/7,213
15 June - ?/8,513
16 June - ?/8,677
17 June - 5,195 (UK corps PW captured as of 1800)/9,041
18 June - 5,227/9,361
19 June - ?/10,017
20 June - 5,280/10,339
21 June - 5,283/10,664
22 June - 5,283/11,032
23 June - 5,295/11,261
24 June - 5,312/13,927
25 June - 5,382/17,479
26 June - ?/26,921
27 June - 5,560/35,563
28 June - 5,621/37,373
29 June - 5,657/38,289
30 June - 5,662/41,251
Notes -
UK figures are for those arrived in UK through 16 June, including "some PW evacuated from US Sector". From 18 June UK reporting is as of 1800 hours and is the PW reported captured in the previous 24 hours.
US figures are for those reported captured and in corps cages.
8 June (as of 1800) - 862/1,314
11 June (as of 0600) - 5,209 (probably total UK and US)/?
12 June - ?/6,766
14 June (as of 1800) - ?/7,213
15 June - ?/8,513
16 June - ?/8,677
17 June - 5,195 (UK corps PW captured as of 1800)/9,041
18 June - 5,227/9,361
19 June - ?/10,017
20 June - 5,280/10,339
21 June - 5,283/10,664
22 June - 5,283/11,032
23 June - 5,295/11,261
24 June - 5,312/13,927
25 June - 5,382/17,479
26 June - ?/26,921
27 June - 5,560/35,563
28 June - 5,621/37,373
29 June - 5,657/38,289
30 June - 5,662/41,251
Notes -
UK figures are for those arrived in UK through 16 June, including "some PW evacuated from US Sector". From 18 June UK reporting is as of 1800 hours and is the PW reported captured in the previous 24 hours.
US figures are for those reported captured and in corps cages.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
Could read several things into those numbers. One is the US accumulation represents the Cotintin pocket from about 24 June. The other might represent the larger proportion of lower quality formations confronting the US 1st Army. Probablly both.
[/quote]
Thanks. Absent the analysis I was asking about I may as well see what the raw tea leaves have.
I went with the high number since the PW numbers look even worse when matched against estimates of 550,000, or 450,000 Germans fighting in Normandy. Go with a lower number & you are considering 33% of the German soldiers surrendered outside of the major pockets.Richard Anderson wrote: ↑08 Sep 2021, 04:13Okay, thanks. I think 750,000 may be a bit high...Ob.West totaled about 1.4 million and included AG-G and all the administrative and security troops in the west.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑08 Sep 2021, 02:59I was looking at claims or estimate for how many soldiers were part of these two formations, 7th Army & Pz Group West, during the Normandy battle. 750,000 was the high estimate I recalled.
Okay, I'll see if I can work out the daily average between the high points of Cherbourg, Roncey, and Falaise.By 'Kanada Option' I was referring to a decision to surrender. Meaning a trip to Canadian PW camps.
[/quote]
Thanks. Absent the analysis I was asking about I may as well see what the raw tea leaves have.
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
There is an interesting tendency to ascribe poor quality to the German formations opposing the FUSA when counting prisoners, but then claiming they were superior when accounting for the American pace of advance.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑10 Sep 2021, 02:14Could read several things into those numbers. One is the US accumulation represents the Cotintin pocket from about 24 June. The other might represent the larger proportion of lower quality formations confronting the US 1st Army. Probablly both.
The Cotentin Peninsula was officially cut 19 June. The troops trapped there may be reliably estimated as 20,672, plus 1,743 Osttruppen, total 22,145, as of 26 June, since that is the strength reported by the Germans. The capitulation there does not account for some 9,000 prisoners in June.
About 1.6 million were available. Less clear is how many were committed.I went with the high number since the PW numbers look even worse when matched against estimates of 550,000, or 450,000 Germans fighting in Normandy. Go with a lower number & you are considering 33% of the German soldiers surrendered outside of the major pockets.
Go for it.Thanks. Absent the analysis I was asking about I may as well see what the raw tea leaves have.
Last edited by Richard Anderson on 11 Sep 2021, 01:04, edited 1 time in total.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
Perhaps the stubborn defence was because the poor quality soldiers surrendered, just leaving troops with faith in the fuhrer... I'll get my coat...Richard Anderson wrote: ↑10 Sep 2021, 03:38There is an interesting tendency to ascribe poor quality to the German formations opposing the FUSA when counting priosners, but then claiming they were superior when accounting for the American pace of advance.
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
The 'No true Scotsman' excuse.Richard Anderson wrote: ↑10 Sep 2021, 03:38
There is an interesting tendency to ascribe poor quality to the German formations opposing the FUSA when counting priosners, but then claiming they were superior when accounting for the American pace of advance.
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
This was my first thought.Sheldrake wrote: ↑10 Sep 2021, 20:01Perhaps the stubborn defence was because the poor quality soldiers surrendered, just leaving troops with faith in the fuhrer... I'll get my coat...Richard Anderson wrote: ↑10 Sep 2021, 03:38There is an interesting tendency to ascribe poor quality to the German formations opposing the FUSA when counting priosners, but then claiming they were superior when accounting for the American pace of advance.
Those still will to fight fought well. Desertion to the rear was not a option for the demoralized. Even group withdrawals were not a option as they would be in some armies. There are frequent remarks about the US soldier being unwilling to remain under intense fire or assault. They'ed move away as a platoon, company, or battalion, they rally quickly. This may have acted as a safety valve or substitute for surrender & desertion.
If the data existed a look at how long the surrendered soldier had been in the battle might be instructive. The speculation being the longer the soldier had been in intense fighting in Normandy the greater the possibility of surrendering. Fresh units or replacement being more likely to fight stubbornly.
Perhaps Im wrong, a quick look at the Italian campaign does not seem to show the same surrender tendency, until the last months. Even the difficult Sicilian & Salerno/DIADEM period battles don't appear to have this phenom.
Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
Yes...Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑28 Aug 2021, 16:08Did notice there is a volume written by Zeterlling on 'Normandy'. Anyone familiar with this one? Worth my time to hunt out a copy?
basic reference with a lot of data.
Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
One reason for the pressure on the Germans was the order to stand and fight for every inch of ground. In Italy there was always another ridge to fall back to. It is common to refer to the pressure of fighting in the bocage on the morale of British Canadian and US troops. The Germans faced the same , with ten times the incoming fire and a sky full of enemy aircraft.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑13 Sep 2021, 13:42This was my first thought.Sheldrake wrote: ↑10 Sep 2021, 20:01Perhaps the stubborn defence was because the poor quality soldiers surrendered, just leaving troops with faith in the fuhrer... I'll get my coat...Richard Anderson wrote: ↑10 Sep 2021, 03:38There is an interesting tendency to ascribe poor quality to the German formations opposing the FUSA when counting priosners, but then claiming they were superior when accounting for the American pace of advance.
Those still will to fight fought well. Desertion to the rear was not a option for the demoralized. Even group withdrawals were not a option as they would be in some armies. There are frequent remarks about the US soldier being unwilling to remain under intense fire or assault. They'ed move away as a platoon, company, or battalion, they rally quickly. This may have acted as a safety valve or substitute for surrender & desertion.
If the data existed a look at how long the surrendered soldier had been in the battle might be instructive. The speculation being the longer the soldier had been in intense fighting in Normandy the greater the possibility of surrendering. Fresh units or replacement being more likely to fight stubbornly.
Perhaps Im wrong, a quick look at the Italian campaign does not seem to show the same surrender tendency, until the last months. Even the difficult Sicilian & Salerno/DIADEM period battles don't appear to have this phenom.
When surrounded and without other options Germans and SS men surrendered - or at least tried to surrender. Claiming to be Polish or Austrian might deflect a bullet. - (Though it did not work for the Czech fellow in Saving Private Ryan)
One obvious reason for disproportionate numbers of Poles and ossies among the surrendering troops is that these men had less commitment to German victory and were in the Heer out of self preservation. Given the opportunity to desert they did. Steiner's account (1./AR 1716) mentions a pole who deserted to the British and was then used by the British in psyops. The former comrade addressed the German defenders of Franceville, including Steiner, with rude remarks about his leadership... I think every unit in the 1944 Organisations had a sprinkling of Hiwis.
Static troops also may have lacked the mobility to exfiltrate. There were few vehicles and they may have even lacked field cooking kit. These may be the high proportion of the PW from D Day and the capture of Cherbourg
Some Poles and Ost truppen may have fought hard. A heard an anecdote about a Pole living in the UK who had served in the German Paratroops defending Monte Cassino. He was wounded and left to look after the other wounded. The Polse who captured him identified that he was Polish. They just gave him a Polish uniform and assimilated him as a replacement, which is how he ended up in the UK.
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy
Good evening,
Here is the census of the prisoners of the 716.Inf.Div who transited in England and listed until 9:00 p.m. on June 18 (2nd Army Summary Intelligence N ° 21/21 Army.Group Int. Summary N ° 135 of June 21, 1944). Most of them were captured on june 6 and 7.
Units Number
Div.Stab 1
Gr.Rgt.726 1094
Gr.Rgt.736 1339
Art.Rgt.1716 489
Pi.Btl.716 26
Pz.jg.Abt.716 * 371
Flak.Kp.716 1
Div.Einheiten.716 11
Total : 3332
* It is in fact a mixed of two of the three companies (1 (sf) and 2 (Pak)./716). The large number of prisoners, which even exceeds the full strength that these two entities could have aligned, suggests that 14./Gr.Rgt.736 was amalgamated with these figures.The number of prisoners from Ost.Btlen is not listed, probably due to a count set up specifically for nationals of the East.
Regards
AETIUS
Here is the census of the prisoners of the 716.Inf.Div who transited in England and listed until 9:00 p.m. on June 18 (2nd Army Summary Intelligence N ° 21/21 Army.Group Int. Summary N ° 135 of June 21, 1944). Most of them were captured on june 6 and 7.
Units Number
Div.Stab 1
Gr.Rgt.726 1094
Gr.Rgt.736 1339
Art.Rgt.1716 489
Pi.Btl.716 26
Pz.jg.Abt.716 * 371
Flak.Kp.716 1
Div.Einheiten.716 11
Total : 3332
* It is in fact a mixed of two of the three companies (1 (sf) and 2 (Pak)./716). The large number of prisoners, which even exceeds the full strength that these two entities could have aligned, suggests that 14./Gr.Rgt.736 was amalgamated with these figures.The number of prisoners from Ost.Btlen is not listed, probably due to a count set up specifically for nationals of the East.
Regards
AETIUS