How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the submarine forces of the Kriegsmarine.
Sid Guttridge
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Sep 2021 14:20

Hi axe,

I mentioned the USS Barb above.

You make a number of allegations against the US but offer no evidence or sources. What have you got that backs your accusations up?

I am also unaware of the Germans faking submarine war diaries. What have you got by way of sources on that?

Cheers,

Sid

ljadw
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by ljadw » 08 Sep 2021 17:42

The war diaries of the U 30 were ''corrected ''after the sinking of the Athenia .

Axel N
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Axel N » 09 Sep 2021 10:39

Hi Sidd,

of course, you are right in pointing out that you mentioned the Campomanes incident before, but unfortunately without the background Information. That trigger-happy officers on both sides acted again standing orders, happens quite often. Usually they have to take the consequences, but faking the records is a criminal act. Details on this can be found in the relevant patrol report of USS Barb and higher U.S. commands, either at the National Archives or online at the website fold3 (registered user only). The British Admiralty war diary is also useful. I guess you are familiar with these sources.

Your innocence on German cases of faked war diaries is rather disapopointing for a member who is frequently posting on the Topic of German U-boats. All this has been extensively discussed in the available literature. Hence I assumed this as a given fact here without repeating details.

Best

Axel Niestlé

Sid Guttridge
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Sep 2021 12:16

Hi Axel N,

You haven't actually given a single traceable source, just an airy wave in the general direction of large archives.

Have you anything specific and traceable to back your assertions?

I am happy to accept pretty much anything, provided the evidence is there, but you just aren't providing any.

Perhaps you have a secondary source that at least discusses the issue?

Cheers,

Sid.

Axel N
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Axel N » 09 Sep 2021 15:10

Hi Sid,

as you are insisting on sources, I have copied you the relevant pages from the patrol report of USS BARB covering 26 Dec 1942, when Campomanes was torpedoed. These were taken from the website www.Fold3, which just offeres the plain documents under the topic US submarine patrol reports in the World War II section. Just type in "BARB" and you will get to the peport for the second patrol. Fold3 does not use specific reference codes.

From the page numbering you will easily see that no page was omitted. Yet, the report for 26 Dec 42 ends early half-page, only to be continued later in the day on a fresh page. Just the period of interest is left out. All other pages are fully typed from top to lower end. The appendix, ref. no. 7, covering "Particulars of Attacks" states: NONE TO REPORT!. YET, ref. no. 16, covering "Factors of Endurance remaining", states under a) Torpedoes - 20. It is, however, a well known fact that submarines of this type carried 24 torpedoes on patrol. So, exactly the four torpedoes fired against the Campomanes are missing. Very stupid entry!

Regarding the British Admiralty War Diary for the date 26 Dec 42 and the days thereafter, you are referred to the same website. search for "Admiralty War Diary" and select the appropriate months. Once opened, just go to the relevant dates and you will find the cover-up story therein.

Anyway, I took pleasure in leading you to the proper documents.

Best

Axel
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Mark McShane
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Mark McShane » 09 Sep 2021 15:21

ljadw wrote:
08 Sep 2021 17:42
The war diaries of the U 30 were ''corrected ''after the sinking of the Athenia .
Hi Ljadw, yes correct, according to U-30 KTB 03 September 1939 was a quiet day.

Mark
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Mark McShane
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Mark McShane » 09 Sep 2021 15:23

Axel N wrote:
09 Sep 2021 15:10
Hi Sid,

as you are insisting on sources, I have copied you the relevant pages from the patrol report of USS BARB covering 26 Dec 1942, when Campomanes was torpedoed. These were taken from the website www.Fold3, which just offeres the plain documents under the topic US submarine patrol reports in the World War II section. Just type in "BARB" and you will get to the peport for the second patrol. Fold3 does not use specific reference codes.

From the page numbering you will easily see that no page was omitted. Yet, the report for 26 Dec 42 ends early half-page, only to be continued later in the day on a fresh page. Just the period of interest is left out. All other pages are fully typed from top to lower end. The appendix, ref. no. 7, covering "Particulars of Attacks" states: NONE TO REPORT!. YET, ref. no. 16, covering "Factors of Endurance remaining", states under a) Torpedoes - 20. It is, however, a well known fact that submarines of this type carried 24 torpedoes on patrol. So, exactly the four torpedoes fired against the Campomanes are missing. Very stupid entry!

Regarding the British Admiralty War Diary for the date 26 Dec 42 and the days thereafter, you are referred to the same website. search for "Admiralty War Diary" and select the appropriate months. Once opened, just go to the relevant dates and you will find the cover-up story therein.

Anyway, I took pleasure in leading you to the proper documents.

Best

Axel
I was not aware of this story, thanks for sharing Axel.

Mark

Sid Guttridge
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Sep 2021 21:42

Hi Axel,

You say, "I took pleasure in leading you to the proper documents." Good, because I took pleasure in extracting them from you!

You have reacted in the proper way to a request for sources and evidence and I thank you for it. It is now a case well made.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Sep 2021 21:45

Hi Mark McShane,

Thank you for turning ljadw's unsupported assertion into something substantive. He could learn a thing or two about providing links and sources,

Cheers,

Sid.

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oldhoweboy
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by oldhoweboy » 10 Sep 2021 11:50

“In war, truth is the first casualty.”
Absentineto a fabis!
Stay away from the beans

ljadw
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by ljadw » 11 Sep 2021 10:59

In war,truth must be protected by a bodyguard of lies ( Churchill )

Linkagain
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Linkagain » 22 Sep 2021 13:39

It should be noted that even Neutral ships were sunk By Warships:
• MV Struma -a Bulgarian Ship carrying 781 Jewish refugees that was torpedoed and sunk on 24 Feb 1942 by USSR submarine Shch 213
• MV Mefküre – a Turkish ship carrying 350 Jewish refugees that was torpedoed and sunk on 5 August 1944 by USSR submarine Shch 215

Wat Tyler
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Wat Tyler » 23 Sep 2021 18:24

Wikipedia gives a list of Turkish ships sunk during the war. The Germans seem to have been successful in not sinking Turkish shipping although the Italian navy managed to sink a couple. There does seem to have been quite a few sunk by the Soviets .
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... %20rows%20

Sid Guttridge
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Sep 2021 19:52

Hi Wat Tyler,

The Red Fleet was trying to interdict the flow of Romanian oil to Italy via the Bosporus. It therefore had submarines lying in ambush on the route in the Black Sea. They appear not to have been too discriminating.

Cheers,

Sid.

Wat Tyler
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Re: How did U-boats avoid attacking Spanish/Turkish shipping?

Post by Wat Tyler » 23 Sep 2021 22:32

I was thinking it looked intentional , seemed a few too many to be accidental.

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