Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

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Ружичасти Слон
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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 09 Sep 2021 13:55

ljadw wrote:
08 Sep 2021 14:08
A war in 1935 does not mean or exclude war in 1939 , thus you can't use the French/British defeat in May/June 1940 , which caused the Italian DOW as an argument to declare war in 1935 .
:roll:

On real history Italy was decide on start war on 10.june 1940.year.

On real history Britain was not be defeat on may 1940.year and was not defeat on 10.june 1940.year.

On real history France was not be defeat on may 1940.year and was not defeat on 10.june 1940.year.


On ljadw invents Britain and France was be defeat before Italy was start on war .

Crazy logic on ljadw invents . Why was Italy start war on countrys what was already defeat ?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 09 Sep 2021 14:01

ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 13:54
The responsibility of the intellectuals and the media is enormous : their own ideological bias (hatred toward fascism ) was more important than the interest of their country .Not that this surprised me . And ,as usual ,the boneless politicians capitulated : Eden,who defended appeasement with Germany, visited Haile Selassie instead of going to Rome to congratulate Mussolini and was of course surprised by the hostile Italian reactions .
Britain was have fascist peoples but they was be mostest small number. Britain government was not be facist . Mostest crazy idea for Eden go on Rome and congratulate Musolini.

But ljadw was write must to be good idea and was write peoples what was hate fascism was be problem .

Maybe we can now to understand why ljadw was write so much imaginations storys on facist leaders was be intelligent persons and fascist countrys was be right for to invade and attack on war and why he was write Britain peoples was be racist .

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by ljadw » 09 Sep 2021 14:35

In 1911 there was a war between two German allies .
Britain decided to support Italy because its opinion was that Italy was more important for her than the Ottoman Empire .
A reasonable attitude.
In 1935 there was a war between Italy, hostile to Germany ,and a country in Africa that Britain considered as very backward;it had opposed Ethiopia's membership of the League . .Britain decided to oppose Italy, because ...?
Because the intellectuals (left book club, etc ) were hostile to Italy's domestic policy,which was not their business .
Not a reasonable attitude .

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by joeylonglegs » 09 Sep 2021 15:27

ljadw wrote:
22 Jul 2021 20:06
MarkF617 wrote:
22 Jul 2021 13:01
Sorry, mis-type. I meant mid 1942. The forces historically used for Crusader would have been enough to finish the Itallians off and they would be starting from much further forward as the Italians wete in no position to push the British back after Beda Fom. Without German input I believe both would sit where they were until ready and I think the Italians would dig in and await the British offensive which they wouldn't stop.

Thanks

Mark.
Compass was stopped by the Italians BEFORE the arrival of Rommel .
Thus,there is no reason to believe that Crusader would do what Compass could not do,without or with the presence of the Germans .
The Italian strength in NA at the start of Crusader was 166000 men, strength of the AK was 48000 men .
ljadw,

You keep insisting this is true even though it's not. Italian resistance is NOT what stopped Compass
Orders from London therefore compelled Wavell to halt the Desert Army south of Beda Fomm and send many of his men and equipment across the Mediterranean Sea to help the Greeks. The tough and now experienced 6th Australian Division - victor of Bardia and Benghazi - was sent to Greece, together with the 2nd New Zealand (currently just two brigades), a full tank brigade of 2nd Armoured Division, and most of the Desert Air Force. The defence of the newly conquered territory in Cyrenaica was left to one armoured brigade, the Support Group of the 2nd Armoured Division, and another new arrival, the 9th Australian Division. Their task was to go over to the defensive west of Benghazi and hold the ground already gained. The possibility of a final victory over the Italians in North Africa, gained at Beda Fomm, was thrown away by these diversions to Greece.


-Neillands, Robin. Eighth Army. United States, Overlook Press, 2004. p.35

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 09 Sep 2021 17:16

ljadw wrote:
07 Sep 2021 18:25
In 1912 Italy attacked and invaded the Ottoman Empire;
in 1915 Italy became
In 1935 Italy attacked and invaded Ethiopia;
,in 1940 Italy became an ally of Germany .
n :1912 or 1935 ?
ljadw wrote:
08 Sep 2021 07:38
In 1867 Britain sent
In 1936 it
In 1896 Britain
40 years later,
no difference between 1935 and 1896:
ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 13:54
Japan did in 1904 what Italy did in 1935
For Libya in 1911 : what Italy did in 1935 was the same of what it did in 1911
1867 1911 1904 1935 1896 1936 1915 1912 ....... :roll:
Japan Ottoman Ethiopia Russia.... :roll:

So much dates
So much words

No help for to understand nothing .
ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 13:54
For Libya in 1911 : what Italy did in 1935 was the same of what it did in 1911 .The British reaction in 1911 was good,the reaction in 1935 was very bad,even suicidal : it pushed Italy into the arms of Germany and it had a big influence on the operations in WW2 .
On real history Romans was attack Britain on 43.year
On real history Italy was surrender on 1943.year

How can to be decision on 1935.year suicidal on Britain ? It seems to me decision was be suicidal on Italy.

More ljadw tosh .

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 09 Sep 2021 17:56

ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 14:35
In 1911 there was a war between two German allies .
Which two allies?

Regards

Tom

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by ljadw » 09 Sep 2021 18:11

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
09 Sep 2021 17:56
ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 14:35
In 1911 there was a war between two German allies .
Which two allies?

Regards

Tom
Italy and the Ottoman Empire were German allies.

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 09 Sep 2021 18:37

ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 18:11
Italy and the Ottoman Empire were German allies.
In 1911?

Tom

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by joeylonglegs » 09 Sep 2021 19:04

ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 18:11
Tom from Cornwall wrote:
09 Sep 2021 17:56
ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 14:35
In 1911 there was a war between two German allies .
Which two allies?

Regards

Tom
Italy and the Ottoman Empire were German allies.
I don't think the Ottomans were allied with Germany in 1912.

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 09 Sep 2021 19:52

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
09 Sep 2021 18:37
ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 18:11
Italy and the Ottoman Empire were German allies.
In 1911?

Tom
On real history ?
Answer = no

But on ljadw imaginations storys ljadw can for to invent something what ljadw want .

:lol:

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by ljadw » 09 Sep 2021 20:49

joeylonglegs wrote:
09 Sep 2021 19:04
ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 18:11
Tom from Cornwall wrote:
09 Sep 2021 17:56
ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 14:35
In 1911 there was a war between two German allies .
Which two allies?

Regards

Tom
Italy and the Ottoman Empire were German allies.
I don't think the Ottomans were allied with Germany in 1912.
I did not say that they were members of the Triple Entente, but they were allies of Germany :German officers reorganized the Ottoman army (von der Goltz, Liman von Sanders ) Liman von Sanders became before the war military commander of the Ottoman capital which caused a lot of hostile reactions in Russia .

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by ljadw » 09 Sep 2021 21:06

I disagree with Neillands : he neglects the role of morale in war : if the Italians were running away, it would be very possible to go to Tripoli and to capture the city with a few battalions .He also neglects the fact that a strong WDF (if there was no Lustre ) would have much less chance to go to Tripoli (1000 km ) before the arrival of the Germans and before the arrival of the Italian reinforcements .
The truth is that the stronger you are, the slower you can advance : 100 tanks advance faster than 500 tanks,10000 men advance faster than 100000 men .
The Germans had planned an advance to the AA line after the collapse of the Soviets in the Summer of 1941, an advance without the Panzer divisions, because tanks were not made to advance 1000 km,but only for short distances .
It was the same in NA : Montgomery was going to Tripoli with one division,and it took him 2 months .
OÇonnor had not 2 months available to go to Tripoli,only a few weeks,and this presumes a small force which was available .
Both, Lustre and the advance to Tripoli were possible simultaneously .But the capture of Tripoli depended on what the Italians could and would do .

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by joeylonglegs » 09 Sep 2021 21:40

ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 21:06
I disagree with Neillands : he neglects the role of morale in war : if the Italians were running away, it would be very possible to go to Tripoli and to capture the city with a few battalions .He also neglects the fact that a strong WDF (if there was no Lustre ) would have much less chance to go to Tripoli (1000 km ) before the arrival of the Germans and before the arrival of the Italian reinforcements .
The truth is that the stronger you are, the slower you can advance : 100 tanks advance faster than 500 tanks,10000 men advance faster than 100000 men .
The Germans had planned an advance to the AA line after the collapse of the Soviets in the Summer of 1941, an advance without the Panzer divisions, because tanks were not made to advance 1000 km,but only for short distances .
It was the same in NA : Montgomery was going to Tripoli with one division,and it took him 2 months .
OÇonnor had not 2 months available to go to Tripoli,only a few weeks,and this presumes a small force which was available .
Both, Lustre and the advance to Tripoli were possible simultaneously .But the capture of Tripoli depended on what the Italians could and would do .
I don't see how any of this changes that Italian resistance is not what stopped Compass.

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 09 Sep 2021 21:42

ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 20:49
I did not say that they were members of the Triple Entente, but they were allies of Germany :German officers reorganized the Ottoman army (von der Goltz, Liman von Sanders ) Liman von Sanders became before the war military commander of the Ottoman capital which caused a lot of hostile reactions in Russia .
By that logic, I assume you think they were allies of Great Britain due to the role of the British in assisting the Turkish Navy?

Regards

Tom

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Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Takao » 09 Sep 2021 21:43

ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2021 20:49

I did not say that they were members of the Triple Entente, but they were allies of Germany :German officers reorganized the Ottoman army (von der Goltz, Liman von Sanders ) Liman von Sanders became before the war military commander of the Ottoman capital which caused a lot of hostile reactions in Russia .
Still more contrariness.

Not to long ago, you stated Allies are irrelevant. If allies are truly irrelevant, than this argument is irrelevant.

Also, your lack of historical knowledge continues.
Yes, the Germans helped reorganize the Ottoman Army. However, that was 1913...You said 1911. Please provide a shred of proof that the Ottomans & Germans were allied in 1911.

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