Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
According to the "Book of Memory" of every post-soviet state, which consist data about the mobilised and conscripted man during WW2, the total number of manpower used by Soviet military during the conflict is c.40.000.000.
C.17.000.000 didn't return home. Only the fate c.8.500.000 of those is known.
C.17.000.000 didn't return home. Only the fate c.8.500.000 of those is known.
- thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
The statistics in Krivosheev are based on the OMD database that lists the names of confirmed dead and missing. He deducts from the OMD figures those convicted (penal units and executed), deserters and released Pows that did not return to the USSR. Krivosheev does not include casualties from a separate reconciliation of those conscripted not in the OMD database. Krivosheev maintains that this difference is due to those reservists conscripted but who were never inducted. He points out that the records of the German military command were used to explain those casualties not recorded. The Russian MOD archive maintains a separate database of those reported dead or missing during the war not including deserters. Pows released are not deducted from the MOD archive figures.
The figures in Krivosheev are based on the OMD database available in the immediate postwar era, subsequent research has been able to identify additional confirmed dead and missing.
Reconciliation of Krivosheev
Corrected 1993 figures
Irrecoverable losses of conscripts
Irrecoverable losses of conscripts
In (1,000)
Military Archive
In (1,000)
Military Archive
In (1,000)
Military Archive
In (1,000)
The data presented in official Russian sources is Дезинформация маскировка
The figures in Krivosheev are based on the OMD database available in the immediate postwar era, subsequent research has been able to identify additional confirmed dead and missing.
Reconciliation of Krivosheev
- Killed 5,613,664
Died 750,192
DOW 1,233,562
Disese 240,508
POW/MIA 2,842,850
Executed 71,754
Suicide 28,600
OMD database 10,781,130
Less:
Deserters (376,000)
Remained in west (180,000)
Convicts (557,000)
Reservists (1,000,000)
Krivosheev balance 8,668,130
Corrected 1993 figures
- KIA 5,226,800
Non Combat 555,500
DOW 1,102,800
MIA 500,000
Pows 4,059,000
Less:
Deserters (376,800)
Convicts (562,900)
Returned to USSR (1,836,000)
Krivosheev balance 8,668,400
Irrecoverable losses of conscripts
- Killed 5,613,664
Died 750,192
DOW 1,233,562
Disease 240,508
MIA 2,842,850
Executed 71,754
Suicide 28,600
OMD database 10,781,130
Dead/Missing from German records 1,163,000
Irrecoverable losses 11,944,130
Irrecoverable losses of conscripts
In (1,000)
- KIA 5,187.1
Non combat 541.9
DOW 1,100.3
NKVD border/Security 55.8
MIA 500.0
Convicts 557.7
POWs 2,282.0
Deserters 376.3
Pows remaining in the west 180.0
OMD database 10,781.1
Dead/Missing from German records 1,163.0
Irrecoverable losses 11,944.1
Military Archive
In (1,000)
- Irrecoverable losses 11,944.1
Misc adj 2.5
Civilians in military 94.6
Subtotal 12,041.2
Deserters (376.3)
Remained in west (179.9)
Released Pows
Golikov 2,016.4
Filtration 348.6
Military Archive 13,850.0
Military Archive
In (1,000)
- OMD 10,781.1
Deserters (376.3)
Pows remaining in the west (179.9)
Civilians in military 94.6
Dead/Missing from German records 1,163.0
Misc adj 2.5
Released Pows
Filtration 349.0
Golikov 2,016.0
Irrecoverable losses 13,850.0
Military Archive
In (1,000)
- KIA 5,187.1
Non combat 541.9
DOW 1,100.3
NKVD border/security 55.8
Civilians in military 94.6
Convicts 557.7
Pows/MIA OMD 2,785.0
Dead/Missing from German records 1,162.6
Released Pows 2,365.0
Irrecoverable losses 13,850.0
The data presented in official Russian sources is Дезинформация маскировка
- thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
Krivosheev lists the casualty data for 42 Fronts and 12 Navy fleets and groups. This information must be added down on a spreadsheet, Krivosheev does not provide totals.
Data Fronts & Fleets
Data Fronts & Fleets
- KIA 5,184,749
Non combat 534,273
DOW 1,100,327
MIA 4,452,336
Irrecoverable losses 11,271,685
Less
Released Pows (2,365,000)
NKVD border/security (144,000)
Civilians in military (94,662)
Krivosheev balance 8,668,023
- thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
Where's the Rest?
Numbers in (1,000)
1995 military balance
Numbers in (1,000)
1995 military balance
- Krivosheev balance 8,668.4
Forced labor in Germany 2,164.3
Convicts 557.7
Civilians in military 94.6
Released Pows 2,365.0
Archive balance 13,850.0
- Krivosheev balance 8,668.4
Forced labor in Germany 2,164.3
Civilians exterminated 7,420.1
Deaths famine disease 8,500.0
Demographic loss 26,752.8
- Civilians in military 94.6
Convicts 562.9
Deserters 376.8
Remained in west 180.0
Militia 150.0
Partisans 250.0
Civilians killed 4,500.0
Siege of Leningrad 641.8
Bombing of Stalingrad 40.0
Bombing of Moscow 2.0
2nd emmigration 451.0
Emmigration of Germans 140.0
Emmigration of Romanians 31.0
Total 7,420.1
Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
Krivosheev figures are included in those 17M what I had mentioned above.thorwald77 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2021, 16:55The statistics in Krivosheev are based on the OMD database that lists the names of confirmed dead and missing.
Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
No, statistics in Krivosheyev are mostly based on number reports submitted by fronts and separate armies (fleets, flotillas etc). Which listed only the number of casualties but not names.thorwald77 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2021, 16:55The statistics in Krivosheev are based on the OMD database that lists the names of confirmed dead and missing.
Quote from "Grif sekretnosti snyat":
"The number of personnel losses of the Red Army and Navy was determined by analysis and generalization of statistical materals of the General Staff, reports of fronts, fleets, armies, military districts and reports of the Central Military Medical Directorate".
There is no single word about "database" here.
How "reports of fronts" looked like you can see, for example, here:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=151400250
They were essetnially tables with numbers. Numbers of casualties given by Krivosheyev are produced just by summing up these tables. They didn't have anything to do with casualties lists submitted by military units and which are reproduced in the OBD. Both types of sources were obviously incomplete in the first phase of the war.
What is the number of casualties in the electronic database nobody knows for sure.
- thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
No Art, the official total of 11.944 million was adjusted by Krivosheev, he deducted convicts, deserters, conscripted reservists and estimated POW deaths based on Axis figures to arrive at his total of 8.668 million. The OMD total of 10.781 million does not include 1.163 million POW deaths based on Axis figures.
Irrecoverable losses of conscripts
Reconciliation of Krovosheev
Irrecoverable losses of conscripts
- KIA 5,187.1
Non combat 541.9
DOW 1,100.3
NKVD border/Security 55.8
MIA 500.0
Convicts 557.7
POWs per Krivosheev 1,282.0
Conscripted reservists 1,000.0
Deserters 376.3
Remained in west 180.0
OMD database 10,781.1
Pow deaths from Axis records 1,163.0
Irrecoverable losses 11,944.1
- KIA 5,187.1
Non combat 541.9
DOW 1,100.3
NKVD border/Security 55.8
MIA 500.0
POWs 1,283.0
Krivosheev balance 8,668.1
Reservists 1,000.0
Pows From Axis records 1,162.0
Deserters 376.3
Convicts 557.7
Remained in west 180.0
Irrecoverable losses 11,944.1
Reconciliation of Krovosheev
- OMD database
Killed 5,613,664
Died 750,192
DOW 1,233,562
Disease 240,508
POW/MIA 2,842,850
Executed 71,754
Suicide 28,600
Total 10,781,130
Krivosheev adjustments
Deserters (376,000)
Remained in west (180,000)
Convicts (557,000)
Reservists (1,000,000)
Krivosheev balance 8,668,130[/list]
Field reports 1945- Army 10,008,400
DOW 1,100,000
Navy 153,770
Far East 12,030
Subtotal 11,274,200
Adjustments
Reservists 500,000
Pow freed to 10/44 (349,000)
Pow Fred after 10/44 (2,016,400)
Remained in west 180,000
Convicts 562,900
Deserters 376,300
NKVD border/security 159,100
Civilians in military 94,000
OMD database 10,781,100
Pows From Axis records 1,163,000
Irrecoverable losses 11,944,100
Note well Krivosheev was working with the OMD figures at the end of the war 10.781 million, subsequent research has adjusted this balance upward. - Army 10,008,400
- thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
Also it must be pointed out that the detailed figures presented by Krivosheev for the individual fronts and fleets are not reliable. You must add the data for the 64 fronts and fleets on a spreadsheet.
Data Fronts & Fleets
KIA 5,184,749
Non combat 534,273
DOW 1,100,327
MIA/POW 4,452,336
Subtotal in Krivosheev 11,271,685
Adjustments
Reservists 500,000
Freed to 10/44 (349,000)
Freed after 10/44 (2,016,000)
Remained in west 180,000
Convicts 562,900
Deserters 376,300
NKVD border/security 159,100
Civilians in military 94,662
OMD database 10,779,647
Pows From Axis records 1,164,500
Irrecoverable losses 11,944,147
Data Fronts & Fleets
KIA 5,184,749
Non combat 534,273
DOW 1,100,327
MIA/POW 4,452,336
Subtotal in Krivosheev 11,271,685
Adjustments
Reservists 500,000
Freed to 10/44 (349,000)
Freed after 10/44 (2,016,000)
Remained in west 180,000
Convicts 562,900
Deserters 376,300
NKVD border/security 159,100
Civilians in military 94,662
OMD database 10,779,647
Pows From Axis records 1,164,500
Irrecoverable losses 11,944,147
- thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
Krivosheev tells us a story about "duplications" and those "re-conscripted" to explain away the hidden details of his difference. The Russian military archive has records of the individual names of "about 13.850 million" irrecoverable losses during the war not including deserters. Gullible academics in the west regurgitate Krivosheev's statistic of 8.668 million war dead.
Military Archive
Military Archive
Military Archive
- OMD 10,781.1
Deserters (376.3)
Remained im west (179.9)
Civilians in military 94.6
Pows From Axis records 1,164.3
Freed Pows
Filtration 349.2
Golikov 2,016.4
Military archive 13,849.4
Military Archive
- Krivosheev balance 8,668.4
Forced labor in Germany 2,164.3
Convicts 557.7
Civilians in military 94.6
Released Pows 2,365.0
Archive balance 13,850.0
- Irrecoverable losses 11,944.1
Civilians in military 94.6
Subtotal 12,038.7
Deserters (376.3)
Remained in west (179.9)
Released Pows
Golikov 2,016.4
Filtration 349.2
Military Archive 13,848.1
- thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
Please do not misunderstand me, I have outlined the details of what the Russian MOD has done. I am not saying that the figures are correct. They really need to provide the original documents to back up their figures. In any case the MOD gives us a great annual mickey mouse parade every year.
- thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
To make this absolutely clear I am posting a reconciliation of POWs, the Soviets added 1.163 million to the OMD balance of 10.783 million to arrive at irrecoverable losses of 11.944 million
POW reconciliation
POW reconciliation
- POW Germany 5,734,528
POW Romania 82,090
POW Finland 64,188
Escaped Germany (66,694)
Escaped Romania (3,331)
Escaped Finland (712)
POW held 5,810,069
Filtration died 5,000
Filtration freed (354,000)
Golikov freed (2,016,000)
POW losses 3,445,069
MIA 500,000
POW balance 3,945,069
KIA 5,187,100
Non combat 541,900
DOW 1,100,300
Border/Security 55,800
Convicts 557,700
Deserters 376,300
Remained im west 180,000
Irrecoverable losses 11,944,169
- POW Germany 5,734
POW Romania 82
POW Finland 64
Escaped (70)
Axis records balance 5,810
Soviet Adjs
Filtration released (349)
Golikov released (2,016)
From Axis records (1,162)
Reservist Pows (1,000)
Krivoshev Pows (1,283)
Axis records balance (5,810)
From Axis records (1,162)
Reservist Pows (1,000)
Krivoshev Pows (1,283)
Soviet balance (3,445)
Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
Again, these are not the numbers of casualties. Attempts to recocnile them with offical sources are simply meaningless arithmetic exercises.thorwald77 wrote: ↑01 Oct 2021, 20:06OMD database
Killed 5,613,664
Died 750,192
DOW 1,233,562
Disease 240,508
POW/MIA 2,842,850
Executed 71,754
Suicide 28,600
Total 10,781,130
- thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
Art wrote
Art what are the official sources?Attempts to recocnile them with offical sources are simply meaningless arithmetic exercises
Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
"Grif sekretnosti snyat", "Soviet casualties and combat losses..." and the following books.
- thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths
"Grif sekretnosti snyat", is not a reliable source, the authors omit 3.7 million dead and missing military and paramilitary casualties.
1-Honorable deaths, 2.164 million "forced labor in Germany", 146,000 militia and 250,00 partisans.
2-Dishonorable losses-422,700 convicts in penal units, 135,000 convicts executed, 376,300 deserters and 179,000 released Pows that did return to the USSR.
1-Honorable deaths, 2.164 million "forced labor in Germany", 146,000 militia and 250,00 partisans.
2-Dishonorable losses-422,700 convicts in penal units, 135,000 convicts executed, 376,300 deserters and 179,000 released Pows that did return to the USSR.