Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 06 Oct 2021 20:39

We know that Hitler wasn’t born in Germany so he wasn’t born a German citizen. So, the only other way he would qualify as being a German would be if he were an ethnic German. How does one define an ‘ethnic German’? Hitler didn’t know who his paternal grandfather was so how he could proclaim to be a German by blood?

Helmut Heiber in his book Adolf Hitler: A Short Biography on page 8 wrote:
The aberrational quality of the Hitler family beginning with the ambitious and enterprising father or Adolf shows that other blood must have entered the Lower Austrian Waldviertel stock which had been weakened by years of interbreeding.
Hardly what one would consider a tick in the box of being an ethnic German.

According to Hitler’s own laws, the Nuremberg Laws, he would have been a Mischling of the second degree, but because his father declared that Johann Georg Hiedler was his father, he was officially considered Hitler’s grandfather so Hitler was considered to be ‘German or related blood’ (Aryan).

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 07 Oct 2021 06:47

Ordinary Germans with one Jewish grandparent or with eight Jewish grand-grandparents were allowed to be a German citizen .
SS members could have Jewish ancestors if those lived before 1800/1750 .
About nationality : you can chose your nationality by naturalization .
You can abandon your ethnicity : a very big part ( maybe the majority ) of those who are considered in the US/Europe by non Jewish people as Jewish,do not consider themselves as Jewish .See the examples of the parents of Soros, see the examples of Bronstein (Trotzky ), of Goldwater,of the French Premier Debré.
Was Disraeli Jewish ?Are the Miliband brothers Jewish ? Of course the Nazis would have killed them, but only they self,and no one else,can say that they are Jewish ,and given that they are Marxists, one can doubt that they accept to be Jewish .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Oct 2021 08:01

Hi ljadw,

Disraeli was a Marxist?

Sid

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 07 Oct 2021 08:19

ljadw wrote:
07 Oct 2021 06:47
Ordinary Germans with one Jewish grandparent or with eight Jewish grand-grandparents were allowed to be a German citizen .
SS members could have Jewish ancestors if those lived before 1800/1750 .
About nationality : you can chose your nationality by naturalization .
You can abandon your ethnicity : a very big part ( maybe the majority ) of those who are considered in the US/Europe by non Jewish people as Jewish,do not consider themselves as Jewish .See the examples of the parents of Soros, see the examples of Bronstein (Trotzky ), of Goldwater,of the French Premier Debré.
Was Disraeli Jewish ?Are the Miliband brothers Jewish ? Of course the Nazis would have killed them, but only they self,and no one else,can say that they are Jewish ,and given that they are Marxists, one can doubt that they accept to be Jewish .
German citizens with only one Jewish grandparent, who were considered to be Mischinge of second degree, had employment restrictions. Also, they were not required to be granted any permission to marry an “Aryan”, but they were advised to not marry other Mischling of any kind.

You can abandon your ethnicity as much as you want, but it doesn’t change it. A person born a Jew will always be an ethnic Jew. A Chinese man who moves to the US is still a Chinese man. An Indian man who moves to the UK is still an Indian.

Yes, Benjamin Disraeli was ethnically Jewish and is the only Jewish Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in history.

A person born to a Jewish mother will always be a Jew.

Why can a Jew not be a Marxist?

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 07 Oct 2021 14:33

I did NOT say that a Jew can not be a Marxist, but that a Marxist who was born Jewish will deny his Jewishness .
Marxists are the greatest enemies of Jewishness,of Jews . They denied that anti-Semitism was very influential in,almost dominating the working classes ;when they were faced by reality,they said that it was the fault of the Jews . They even denied the Holocaust .
A Jew who becomes Marxist ,abandons his Jewish ethnicity .
And, about ethnicity : it is not on you,or on me to say that an Indian man who moves to the UK is still an Indian . This is reserved to him and to no one else .
Einstein was a Jewish German who immigrated to the US and became an American citizen .It was on him,and only on him to decide if he was German, Jewish,or American .
Schwarzenegger was born as an Austrian, he is now American.It is on him,on him only ,to decide if he is still Austrian or if he is American .
Chaplin and Stan Laurel emigrated to the US ,but remained British citizens . It was on them only to decide if they felt British or American .
About Disraeli :he was a practicing christian who had abandoned all ties with the Jewish community .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 07 Oct 2021 21:19

ljadw wrote:
07 Oct 2021 14:33
I did NOT say that a Jew can not be a Marxist, but that a Marxist who was born Jewish will deny his Jewishness .
Marxists are the greatest enemies of Jewishness,of Jews . They denied that anti-Semitism was very influential in,almost dominating the working classes ;when they were faced by reality,they said that it was the fault of the Jews . They even denied the Holocaust .
A Jew who becomes Marxist ,abandons his Jewish ethnicity .
And, about ethnicity : it is not on you,or on me to say that an Indian man who moves to the UK is still an Indian . This is reserved to him and to no one else .
Einstein was a Jewish German who immigrated to the US and became an American citizen .It was on him,and only on him to decide if he was German, Jewish,or American .
Schwarzenegger was born as an Austrian, he is now American.It is on him,on him only ,to decide if he is still Austrian or if he is American .
Chaplin and Stan Laurel emigrated to the US ,but remained British citizens . It was on them only to decide if they felt British or American .
About Disraeli :he was a practicing christian who had abandoned all ties with the Jewish community .
I can see that you’re still peddling misinformation.

SteveFBS
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by SteveFBS » 08 Oct 2021 01:45

Is there a way you can block certain threads?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Oct 2021 07:21

Hi SteveBS,

You can appeal to the management with reasons.

However, shutting threads down does not really address the issue and cuts off constructive contributors along with the destructive.

Threads are made by we posters and some of us are the recurrent problem.

However, there seems to be no mechanism to suspend those who persistently corrupt AHF with stream-of-consciousness, unsourced, misinformation that wastes other posters time pooper scooping behind them. This makes some individuals a running sore that undermines confidence in AHF as a source.

The best way to deal with these posters is continually to demand sources of them. This obliges them to do a little work, rather than just haranguing the rest of us with off-the-cuff opinion. If they won't provide sources, they are breaking the rules and are then, in theory, exposed to sanction by management.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 08 Oct 2021 09:53

Sid Guttridge wrote:
07 Oct 2021 08:01
Hi ljadw,

Disraeli was a Marxist?

Sid
Where did I say that Disraeli was a Marxist ?
I did say that Jews who became Marxists abandoned Judaism,because both exclude each other .Marx and Rosa Luxemburg were members of assimilated former Jewish families and were hostile to Judaism .Anti-Semitism was not confined to the Nazis and the right wingers .
And about Disraeli : ''He had abandoned Judaism and was estranged of it '' ( Source : Benjamin Jaffe in " A Reassessment of Benjamin Disraeli's Jewish Aspects .''
For reasons which are obvious and irrelevant for this discussion, Disraeli had become a christian and thus did cut all ties with the Jewish world .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 08 Oct 2021 14:29

@ljadw

Bugger off trying to hijack this thread to make it about Jews and Marxism.

Your ethnicity is your ancestry, you may deny it or refuse to acknowledge it, but you cannot change it.

I suppose the argument that Hitler and others made was that Austrians, like Bavarians, were ethnically southern Germans. So it didn’t matter that in 1889 Austria wasn’t a part of Germany for Hitler to claim he was an ethnic German. Hitler considered himself to be an Austrian, a Bavarian and a German.

SteveFBS
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by SteveFBS » 08 Oct 2021 15:09

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Oct 2021 07:21
Hi SteveBS,

You can appeal to the management with reasons.

However, shutting threads down does not really address the issue and cuts off constructive contributors along with the destructive.

Threads are made by we posters and some of us are the recurrent problem.

However, there seems to be no mechanism to suspend those who persistently corrupt AHF with stream-of-consciousness, unsourced, misinformation that wastes other posters time pooper scooping behind them. This makes some individuals a running sore that undermines confidence in AHF as a source.

The best way to deal with these posters is continually to demand sources of them. This obliges them to do a little work, rather than just haranguing the rest of us with off-the-cuff opinion. If they won't provide sources, they are breaking the rules and are then, in theory, exposed to sanction by management.

Cheers,

Sid.
Oh, I don't want the thread deleted. People can obviously discuss whatever they like. I'm just wondering if there is a way I can block having to SEE certain threads that seem pointless to me, such as a "Dismiss Entire Thread" option.
Thanks!
-Steven

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 08 Oct 2021 17:56

George L Gregory wrote:
08 Oct 2021 14:29
@ljadw



Your ethnicity is your ancestry, you may deny it or refuse to acknowledge it, but you cannot change it.

I suppose the argument that Hitler and others made was that Austrians, like Bavarians, were ethnically southern Germans. So it didn’t matter that in 1889 Austria wasn’t a part of Germany for Hitler to claim he was an ethnic German. Hitler considered himself to be an Austrian, a Bavarian and a German.
These two sentences contradict each other .
If ethnicity is ancestry,(and the opposite ) ,Hitler could not say that he was an ethnically southern German,as he had no German ancestors .
A lot of Austrians (at certain moments,a majority ) considered themselves as Germans,some as Austrian Germans, others as German Austrians, although there had been til 1871 no German state . The reasons why they did do this were diverse;they spoke the same language,had a common history ,etc.But these reasons were questionable:the majority of the Swiss had also the same language and a common history, but did not consider themselves as Germans .
After WWI there was an other reason which became dominant : the opinion in Austria was that Austria could not survive as it now existed and that the socio-economic situation became intolerable .
Hitler became a German nationalist because his teachers at school had told him that Austrians were in reality Austrian Germans ,and, he did not consider himself as a southern German, because (as Napoleon ) he wanted to crush all particularism in Germany, especially that of Bavaria .
That before the war he lived in Bavaria and at the start of the war he volunteered in a Bavarian regiment ,does not mean that the considered himself as a Bavarian,as a Bavarian who was loyal to the catholic Wittelsbach king .
After the Anschluss the Austrian Nazis were out and even the name of Austria disappeared,because Hitler (as Napoleon in France )distrusted all forms of particularism and regionalism ,and there was a lot of it in Germany and in Austria .The result was a big disappointment in Austria.

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 08 Oct 2021 18:36

ljadw wrote:
08 Oct 2021 17:56
These two sentences contradict each other .
If ethnicity is ancestry,(and the opposite ) ,Hitler could not say that he was an ethnically southern German,as he had no German ancestors .
A lot of Austrians (at certain moments,a majority ) considered themselves as Germans,some as Austrian Germans, others as German Austrians, although there had been til 1871 no German state . The reasons why they did do this were diverse;they spoke the same language,had a common history ,etc.But these reasons were questionable:the majority of the Swiss had also the same language and a common history, but did not consider themselves as Germans .
After WWI there was an other reason which became dominant : the opinion in Austria was that Austria could not survive as it now existed and that the socio-economic situation became intolerable .
Hitler became a German nationalist because his teachers at school had told him that Austrians were in reality Austrian Germans ,and, he did not consider himself as a southern German, because (as Napoleon ) he wanted to crush all particularism in Germany, especially that of Bavaria .
That before the war he lived in Bavaria and at the start of the war he volunteered in a Bavarian regiment ,does not mean that the considered himself as a Bavarian,as a Bavarian who was loyal to the catholic Wittelsbach king .
After the Anschluss the Austrian Nazis were out and even the name of Austria disappeared,because Hitler (as Napoleon in France )distrusted all forms of particularism and regionalism ,and there was a lot of it in Germany and in Austria .The result was a big disappointment in Austria.
Of course Hitler had German ancestors - his family were Austrian Germans who had lived in more or less the same area for centuries. There was even a pamphlet which detailed all of Hitler’s ancestors that was published in the late 1930s. Hitler ordered genealogists to research his family tree and it was published for the German public to read. Hitler’s birthplace was previously under Bavarian rule. There are plenty of cities and towns that have changed from Austrian rule to Bavarian rule and vice versa.

As Joachim Fest in his book The Face of the Third Reich on pages 19-20 wrote:
The indulgence normally accorded to a man's origins is out of place in the case of Adolf Hitler, who made documentary proof of Aryan ancestry a matter of life and death for millions of people but himself possessed no such document. He did not know who his grandfather was. Intensive research into his origins, accounts of which have been distorted by propagandist legends and which are in any case confused and murky, has failed so far to produce a clear picture. National Socialist versions skimmed over the facts and emphasised, for example, that the population of the so-called Waldviertel, from which Hitler came, had been 'tribally German since the Migration of the Peoples', or more generally, that Hitler had 'absorbed the powerful forces of this German granite landscape into his blood through his father'.
Hitler’s Austrian ancestors were by definition ethnic Germans so of course he had German (Austrian German) ancestors.

Prior to 1866, the year of the German war, Austrians were considered Germans just like other types of Germans. Thus, Hitler’s parents were considered Germans (Austrian Germans) in the same way that Otto von Bismarck’s parents were considered Germans (Prussian Germans).

The fact that Austria lost the war since the Prussians defeated the Austrians did not mean that Austrians stopped considering themselves Germans, it just meant that when Germany was unified as a nation-state and the German Question was answered by the formation of small Germany (without Austria) the Austrians weren’t considered to be German citizens. However, a look at the Austrian-Hungarian Empire shows that the Austria was ethnically German.

Austrians are by definition southern Germans. Prussians are by definition northern Germans.

Hitler did consider himself to be a Bavarian. For example, on 22 February 1933 he said:
And you may take note of one thing: I myself am a Bavarian according to my origins, my birth and my descent. For the first time since the founding of the empire, Bismarck's dignity has been placed in the hands of a Bavarian.
And, on 2 February 1933 he said:
I myself come from the south, am a citizen of a Northern German State, but I regard myself as a German and live in German history.

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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 08 Oct 2021 18:56

The radio broadcast for the Anschluss on 12 March 1938 mentioned all of what I have posted:
For years we have witnessed the fate of our fellow Germans in Austria with deep distress. An eternal historical bond, severed only by the events of the year 1866 but forged anew in the World War, has from time immemorial destined Austria to take its place in the German national community and share its fate. The suffering which was imposed on this country, first from outside and then from within, we experienced as our own, and we know that the misfortunes of the Reich caused millions of German Austrians similar anxiety and concern!

When the German nation regained the proud self-confidence of a great People, thanks to the triumph of the ideals of National Socialism, in Austria a new period of suffering and most bitter adversity began. A regime with no legal mandate was attempting by means of the most brutal terror and physical mistreatment as well as punitive and destructive economic measures, to maintain an existence which was rejected by the vast majority of the Austrian People. Thus we as a great People saw how a numerically small minority, which had simply been able to seize the necessary instruments of power, was suppressing more than six million people with whom we share a common origin. Their political disenfranchisement and the deprivation of their freedom was accompanied by an economic decline which was a shocking contrast to the blossoming of new life in Germany.

Who could blame these unfortunate fellow Germans if they looked toward the Reich with longing eyes? To that Germany with which their forefathers had been united for so many centuries, with which they had once fought shoulder to shoulder in the most terrible of all wars, whose culture was their culture and to which they themselves had contributed their most cherished values in so many areas. To suppress these longings was to condemn hundreds of thousands of people to the most profound spiritual distress. Whereas years ago this suffering was still borne patiently, as the prestige of the Reich steadily increased, the determination to end this oppression became stronger and stronger.

Germans! In recent years I have tried to warn the former rulers in Austria not to continue on this path. Only a maniac could believe that suppression and terror can deprive human beings of their love of their own People. European history proves that this causes nothing but more intense fanaticism. This fanaticism then forces the suppressor to employ ever more cruel and violent methods, which in turn only increase the revulsion and hatred felt by the victims of this violence.

I also tried to convince those in power that in the long run it is impossible, because it is unworthy, for a great nation to be forced constantly to watch as a People of the same nationality are persecuted and incarcerated merely because of their origin, or their allegiance to a People, or their dedication to an idea. Germany alone has had to accept more than 40,000 refugees, 10,000 others have been in jails, prison cells and holding camps in this small land. Hundreds of thousands have been made beggars, reduced to misery and poverty. In the long run no nation in the world could tolerate such conditions on its borders without itself deserving same disrespect.

In 1936 I tried to find some way which could offer the prospect of alleviating the tragic fate of this German brother nation, and in this way perhaps achieve genuine reconciliation. The Agreement of July 11 was signed only to be breached a moment later. The vast majority remained deprived of their rights. Their humiliating position as a pariah in this state was in no way changed. Anyone who openly supported the ideal of one German nation continued to be persecuted, no matter whether he was a National Socialist street labourer or an old meritorious army commander who had fought in the World War.

I tried a second time to reach an understanding. I attempted to explain to the representative of this regime, who without any legitimate mandate of his own stood before me in my capacity as the elected leader of the German People, I tried to explain to him that in the long run this situation would become intolerable, since the growing outrage of the Austrian People could not be suppressed forever by the increasing use of force, and that from a certain point in time the Reich would find it impossible to continue to stand idly by and silently observe such outrageous treatment.

Today, when even the solution to colonial problems must take into consideration the right of inferior nations to self-determination, it is intolerable that six and a half million members of an old and great civilized People are in practical terms deprived of these rights by the nature of the governing regime. Hence in a new agreement I wanted all Germans in this country to be granted the same rights and be subject to the same obligations. This agreement was to fulfill the terms of the Treaty of July 11 1936.

A few weeks later it unfortunately became obvious that the men of the Austrian government in power at that time had no intention of complying with the terms of this agreement. However, in order to acquire an alibi for their continued failure to grant equal rights to the Austrian Germans, a plebiscite was devised which was intended to finally deprive the majority in this country of its rights! The modalities of this procedure were to be unique. A country which has not had an election for many years, which lacks all the documentation required to compile voters' lists, announces a vote which is to take place within just three and a half days.

There are no electoral lists. There are no voters' cards. There is no scrutiny of the eligibility to vote. There is no obligation to preserve secret ballot. There is no guarantee that the voting will be conducted with impartiality. There is no method of ensuring fair counting of the votes, and so on. If these are the methods to give a regime legality, then we National Socialists in the German Reich were utter fools for 15 years! We went through a hundred election campaigns and took great pains to gain the approval of the German People!

When the late Reichspräsident finally called upon me to form the government, I was the leader of the party which had by far the strongest support in the Reich. Since then I have repeatedly sought to have the legality of my existence and my actions confirmed by the German People, and it was confirmed. If the methods Herr Schuschnigg wanted to use were the right ones, then the plebiscite we once held in the Saar can only have been a device to harass a People whose return to the Reich we wanted to make more difficult. We, however, do not subscribe to that view. I believe we can all be proud that it was in this very plebiscite in the Saar that we received such an indisputable vote of confidence from the German People.

The German People of Austria themselves finally rose up in protest against this unprecedented attempt at election fraud. If, however, it was again the intention of the regime to simply crush the protest movement with brute force, the result could only be a new civil war. The German Reich will, however, henceforth not permit Germans to be persecuted in this territory because of their membership in our nation or because they profess certain views. It wants peace and order.

I have therefore decided to offer the millions of Germans in Austria the assistance of the Reich. Since this morning soldiers of the German armed forces have been crossing all of the German-Austrian borders. Armored units, infantry divisions and SS units on the ground and the German Luftwaffe in the skies, summoned by the new National Socialist Government in Vienna, will ensure that the Austrian People are within the very near future finally given the opportunity to determine for themselves their future, and thus their fate, through a genuine plebiscite. And these units are supported by the will and determination of the entire German nation.

I myself, as Führer and Chancellor of the German People, will be happy once again to be able to enter the country which is also my homeland as a German and a free citizen. The world, however, shall see for itself that for the German People in Austria these days are filled with hours of blissful joy and deep emotion. They regard their brothers who have come to their aid as saviors who have rescued them from great distress!

Long live the National Socialist German Reich! Long live National Socialist German Austria!
http://der-fuehrer.org/reden/english/38-03-12.htm

Austrians in the early 20th century were taught the history of Austria, but after 1945 the Austrians just somehow over night magically forget their German ancestry and history. Before 1866, it was not possible to separate the history of Austria and the history of Germany.

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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 08 Oct 2021 18:58

Hitler was able to use his Austrian ancestry to his advantage during the Anschluss.
Within a few short days, a radical change has taken place in the German Volksgemeinschaft, whose dimensions we might see today, yet whose significance can only be fully appreciated by coming generations. In the past few years, the rulers of the regime which has now been banished often spoke of the special “mission” which, in their eyes, this country was destined to fulfill. A leader of the legitimists outlined it quite accurately in a memorandum.

Accordingly, the so-called sel-sufficiency of this Land of Austria, founded in the peace treaties and contingent upon the mercy of foreign countries, was to perform the function of preventing the formation of a genuinely great German Reich and hence block the path of the German Volk to the future.

I hereby declare for this Land its new mission. It corresponds to the precept which once summoned the German settlers of the Altreich to come here. The oldest Ostmark of the German Volk shall from now on constitute the youngest bulwark of the German nation and hence of the German Reich. For centuries, the storms of the East broke on the borders of the Old Mark in the turbulent times of the past. For centuries into the future, it shall now become an iron guarantor of the security and freedom of the German Reich, and hence a safeguard for the happiness and peace of our Great Volk. I know the old Ostmark of the German Reich will do justice to its new task just as it once performed and mastered the old.

I am speaking on behalf of millions of people in this magnificent German Land, on behalf of those in Styria, in Upper and Lower Austria, in Carinthia, in Salzburg, in Tirol, and above all on behalf of the city of Vienna, when I assure the sixty-eight million other German Volksgenossen in our vast Reich listening this very minute: this Land is German; it has understood its mission, it will fulfill this mission, and it shall never be outdone by anyone as far as loyalty to the great German Volksgemeinschaft is concerned. It will now be our task to devote our labor, diligence, shared dedication, and joint strength to solving the great social, cultural and economic problems; yet first and foremost to make Austria ever grow and expand to become a fortress of National Socialist willpower.

I cannot conclude this address to you without calling to mind those men who, together with me, have made it possible to bring about this great change- with God’s help154-in such a short time. I may thank the National Socialist members of the government, with the new Reichsstatthalter Seyss-Inquart at their fore. I may thank the innumerable party functionaries; I may thank above all the countless anonymous idealists, the fighters of our formations who have proven in the long years of persecution that the German, when put under pressure, only becomes tougher.

These years of suffering have served but to strengthen me in my conviction of the value of the GermanAustrian being within the framework of our great Volksgemeinschaft. At the same time, however, the splendid order and discipline of this tremendous event is proof of the power of the idea inspiring these people. Hence in this hour, I can report to the German Volk that the greatest orders of my life have been carried out.

As the Führer and Chancellor of the German nation and the Reich, I now report to history that my homeland has joined the German Reich.
http://der-fuehrer.org/reden/english/38-03-15.htm

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