Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Oct 2021 22:27

Hi GLG,

The situation in Taiwan is not so straightforward. The native Taiwanese people are not ethnically Chinese. They are a distinct ethnicity of their own related to the Austronesians of the Pacific.

The presence of the mainland Chinese (today the overwhelming majority) is mostly a recent phenomenon of the last three hundred years and particularly the result of Nationalist refugees fleeing the Communist takeover of China in the late 1940s.

To confuse matters further, nearly half the Han inhabitants of Taiwan consider themselves Taiwanese rather than Chinese, even though they do not have native Taiwanese ancestry.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 11 Oct 2021 07:00

My argument is NOT that the Austrians are not Germans, but that there is no proof that they are Germans .
In 1919 they considered themselves as Germans, a year later, they did not not consider themselves as Germans,in 1938 they claimed to be Germans, in 1945 they said they were not Germans .
And, the ''ethnicity '' of a people,of an individual is something very questionable: the father of James Callaghan was a catholic Irishman, his mother was Jewish .But there are no proofs that Callaghan considered himself as Irish, catholic, Jewish .
That Austrians speak German does not make them Germans : the Scottish First Minister who wants Scotland to become independent,also speaks English . Most members of the IRA speak English , and only a very brave fool would tell them that they are British .
About 1866 : before 1866 a group of ''Austrians '' ( one can doubt if there were Austrians before and after 1866 ) considered themselves as cultural Germans ,but no one knows how many they were . After 1866 this number decreased,but it was NOT replaced by the conviction of being Austrian .
You still forget the essential which is that, opposed to the German Empire, Austria,later Austria-Hungary was a multicultural state and that nationalism and the perception of cultural ethnicity was much greater in what is now Czechia than in what is now Austria .There was no need for the German speaking population of Cisleithania to identify themselves : they were the loyal subjects of Franz Jozef and spoke German , better a form of German that was difficult to understand outside Cisleithania, difficult to understand outside the several Länder,even difficult to understand outside their town : Cisleithania consisted of more than two thousand villages with each a very small population,without much contact with the other villages, united in their hostility to the other (Slavic )groups who threatened their dominant position,united in their distrust against the other towns and united in their hostility to Vienna (even today ) .
There are today in Austria 2095 towns with an average population of 3348 inhabitants (not including Vienna ).
What Shepherd also fails to consider (probably he didn't know it ) is the importance of the mass immigration and emigration ( also internal ) : in 1910 622665 people with a AH nationality lived in Germany, what does not make them Germans.Between 1880-1910 there was a net emigration from Cisleithania of 1,275,257 persons but also a strong immigration from Transleithania and from Russia.
How to label all these persons ? Germans? Not Germans ?
Source : Einwanderung, Auswanderung und Binnenwanderung in Österreich-Ungarn um 1910 .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 11 Oct 2021 08:13

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Oct 2021 22:27
Hi GLG,

The situation in Taiwan is not so straightforward. The native Taiwanese people are not ethnically Chinese. They are a distinct ethnicity of their own related to the Austronesians of the Pacific.

The presence of the mainland Chinese (today the overwhelming majority) is mostly a recent phenomenon of the last three hundred years and particularly the result of Nationalist refugees fleeing the Communist takeover of China in the late 1940s.

To confuse matters further, nearly half the Han inhabitants of Taiwan consider themselves Taiwanese rather than Chinese, even though they do not have native Taiwanese ancestry.

Cheers,

Sid.
The Taiwanese people do consider themselves as Taiwanese rather than Chinese these days. However, that was not always the case.

Han Chinese have been settled in Taiwan since the 17th century.
According to governmental statistics, over 95% of Taiwan's 23.4 million people are Han Chinese,[33] of which the majority includes descendants of early Hoklo immigrants who arrived from Fujian in large numbers starting in the 17th century.
So ethnically the majority of Taiwanese people are ethnically Han Chinese, but the Taiwanese people consider themselves as Taiwanese these days.

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 11 Oct 2021 08:29

ljadw wrote:
11 Oct 2021 07:00
My argument is NOT that the Austrians are not Germans, but that there is no proof that they are Germans .
In 1919 they considered themselves as Germans, a year later, they did not not consider themselves as Germans,in 1938 they claimed to be Germans, in 1945 they said they were not Germans .
And, the ''ethnicity '' of a people,of an individual is something very questionable: the father of James Callaghan was a catholic Irishman, his mother was Jewish .But there are no proofs that Callaghan considered himself as Irish, catholic, Jewish .
That Austrians speak German does not make them Germans : the Scottish First Minister who wants Scotland to become independent,also speaks English . Most members of the IRA speak English , and only a very brave fool would tell them that they are British .
About 1866 : before 1866 a group of ''Austrians '' ( one can doubt if there were Austrians before and after 1866 ) considered themselves as cultural Germans ,but no one knows how many they were . After 1866 this number decreased,but it was NOT replaced by the conviction of being Austrian .
You still forget the essential which is that, opposed to the German Empire, Austria,later Austria-Hungary was a multicultural state and that nationalism and the perception of cultural ethnicity was much greater in what is now Czechia than in what is now Austria .There was no need for the German speaking population of Cisleithania to identify themselves : they were the loyal subjects of Franz Jozef and spoke German , better a form of German that was difficult to understand outside Cisleithania, difficult to understand outside the several Länder,even difficult to understand outside their town : Cisleithania consisted of more than two thousand villages with each a very small population,without much contact with the other villages, united in their hostility to the other (Slavic )groups who threatened their dominant position,united in their distrust against the other towns and united in their hostility to Vienna (even today ) .
There are today in Austria 2095 towns with an average population of 3348 inhabitants (not including Vienna ).
What Shepherd also fails to consider (probably he didn't know it ) is the importance of the mass immigration and emigration ( also internal ) : in 1910 622665 people with a AH nationality lived in Germany, what does not make them Germans.Between 1880-1910 there was a net emigration from Cisleithania of 1,275,257 persons but also a strong immigration from Transleithania and from Russia.
How to label all these persons ? Germans? Not Germans ?
Source : Einwanderung, Auswanderung und Binnenwanderung in Österreich-Ungarn um 1910 .
I think you should read about the national identity of Austrians:
The absence of an Austrian national identity was one of the problems confronted when Austria became a country in November 1918. Before 1918 there had been no tradition among German-speaking Austrians of striving for national independence as a small German-speaking state separated from Austria-Hungary or separated from Germany. Within the context of the multiethnic and multilinguistic empire, the great majority of the inhabitants of what was to become Austria considered themselves "Germans" insofar as they spoke German and identified with German culture.

Strong provincial identities that stemmed from the provinces' histories as distinct political and administrative entities with their own traditions existed for this reason. Tiroleans, for example, identified more with their province than with the new nation-state. As a result, the idea of an "Austrian nation" as a cultural and political entity greater than the sum total of provinces, yet smaller than the pan-German idea of the unification of all German speakers into one state, virtually did not exist in 1918. The Austrian historian Friedrich Heer described the confusion surrounding Austrians' national identity in the following manner: "Who were these Austrians after 1918? Were they Germans in rump Austria, German-Austrians, AustrianGermans , Germans in a `second German state,' or an Austrian nation?"

Furthermore, Austrians had serious doubts about the economic and political viability of a small German-speaking state. Two alternatives were envisioned for Austria: either membership in a confederation of the states formed out of Austria-Hungary or unification with Germany as a legitimate expression of Austrian national self-determination. Neither alternative was realized. Efforts to form a "Danube Confederation" failed, and the Allies prohibited Austria's unification with Germany in the treaties signed after World War I. As a compromise between these alternatives, Austria was a "state which no one wanted."

After 1918 many Austrians identified themselves as being members of a "German nation" based on shared linguistic, cultural, and ethnic characteristics. Since unification with Germany was forbidden, most Austrians regarded their new country as a "second" German state arbitrarily created by the victorious powers. During the troubled interwar period, unification with a democratic Germany was seen by many, not only by those on the political right but across the entire political spectrum, as a solution for Austria's many problems.

Nazi Germany's annexation (Anschluss) of Austria into the Third Reich in March 1938 proved to be an impetus for the development of Austrian national consciousness. Austrians increasingly focused on the historical and cultural differences between Austrian and German traditions--or the uniqueness and singularity of an "Austrian nation"--and on the idea of an independent Austrian state. It is one of those quirks of history that the experience of being "German" in the Third Reich was instrumental in awakening feelings of Austrian nationalism for many Austrians, who, by the end of World War II, wholeheartedly endorsed the idea of Austrian independence from Germany. This idea involved rejecting the concept of one "German linguistic and cultural nation" for the sake of two German-speaking nations: one German and the other Austrian.

The reestablishment of Austrian independence in 1945 set the conditions for the development of a new Austrian national identity. Allied policy, which formulated the reestablishment of an independent Austrian state as a war objective and distinguished between the treatment of Austrians and Germans and the Allied occupation of Austria from 1945 until 1955 contributed to promoting attitudes of national cohesiveness and a desire for independence. After the State Treaty of 1955 arranged for the end of the Allied occupation and a subsequent proclamation of Austria's permanent neutrality, Austrians increasingly identified themselves with their country and saw it as a state with traditions and a history distinct from those of Germany. Although a persistent right-wing minority in Austria continued to insist on "Germanness" as being one of the attributes of being Austrian, ever more Austrians came to identify with the Austrian nation in the decades after World War II. Seventy-nine percent did so by 1990, compared with 47 percent in 1966. In this respect, Austria is a "young nation."
http://countrystudies.us/austria/61.htm

What “proof” are you looking for exactly? Austria came out of Bavaria. The Austrians ruled Germany for hundreds of years. Austria in Germany refers to the “eastern realm”. Until 1945, the vast majority of Austrians considers themselves Germans. Pan-Germanism was massive in Austria until the end of WW2.

If history had turned out differently then it would have been the Austrians who unified Austria and Prussia and the Prussians might have been excluded from Germany.

The German-speakers in Central Europe prior to 1871 didn’t speak German because of some sort of accident. The whole point in the unification of Germany as a nation-state was to unify all of the German-speakers into a Greater Germany.

In 1956 when Austrians were asked to fill out a survey which asked the question, “Are you personally of the opinion that we are a sub-group of the German people or a separate Austrian people?” 46% of the Austrians asked answered that they were Germans. That’s nearly a decade after the horrors of the Third Reich and Nazism and when the Austrians had started to distance themselves from Germany and create their own national identity. However, the later polls which revealed that the Austrians didn’t consider themselves to be Germans anymore asked about an “Austrian nation” and not about being a separate ethnic group.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 11 Oct 2021 11:31

Your comment about the 1956 survey is not correct :46 % answered that they were a sub-group of the German people ,but they DID not say that they were Germans .
It is very possible that if the question was :are you German or Austrian, the answer would have been different .
Other points :
it is wrong to say that the Austrians ruled Germany for hundreds of years: Germany did not exist and the territories of which you talk were ''ruled '' by the Hapsburger family which did not consider itself as Austrian or German .
Pan-Germanism became strong in Austria only after WWI, before 1914 the importance,influence of the German nationalists was nonexistent :how many votes did von Schönerer obtain ?
And, even the German nationalists preferred to remain a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, the same for the Czech nationalists .No intelligent person wanted to dismantle the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, not in Austria-Hungary, not in Germany .
Austria could not unify Germany,as the majority of the inhabitants of Austria were Slaves .That's why the Kleindeutsche Lösung was accepted :the Grossdeutsche Lösung would mean that the Czechs would become German citizens .

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 11 Oct 2021 15:30

After 1866 and til 1918 ,the choice for the average German speaking ''Austrian '' who had to work for a living, was : Anschluss with Germany and to become subordinate to Berlin and to become poorer or to remain in Austria-Hungary with a dominant position . For the intellectuals who had only contempt for material situations and who were living in Alice's Wonderland,the Anschluss was better .They had not to work for a living .
The result was that the overwhelming majority of German speaking and German feeling people in AH refused to become the servants of the Prussian Junkers .
In 1918 and in 1939 the situation was different : the choice was to become a part of the German Empire (with all its disadvantages ) or to remain independent as a broken country ,scrutinized and spied on by its neighbours and the winners of the war .
In 1956 Austria was still poor and broken while Germany was equated with the Wirtschaftswunder . Thus, no wonder that a big part of the Austrian population had nostalgia to the Anschluss period .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 11 Oct 2021 16:07

ljadw wrote:
11 Oct 2021 11:31
Your comment about the 1956 survey is not correct :46 % answered that they were a sub-group of the German people ,but they DID not say that they were Germans .
A sub-group of the larger ethnic group - Germans.
Bavarians, Austrians, Prussians, etc, are sub-groups of Germans.
It is very possible that if the question was :are you German or Austrian, the answer would have been different .
Don’t try and argue semantics. The question is very clear: are Austrians part of the German people or not?
Immediately after 1945 the majority of Austrians still saw themselves as Germans, as a broader Austrian national identity took time to develop. In a 1956 survey, 46% of Austrians still considered themselves to be Germans. Another survey carried out in 1964 revealed that only 15% of Austrians still considered themselves to be Germans.
One can be an Austrian and a German at the same time. One can be a Bavarian and a German at the same time.

Similarly, one can be English and British at the same time. One can be Scottish and British at the same time.
Other points :
it is wrong to say that the Austrians ruled Germany for hundreds of years: Germany did not exist and the territories of which you talk were ''ruled '' by the Hapsburger family which did not consider itself as Austrian or German .
Pan-Germanism became strong in Austria only after WWI, before 1914 the importance,influence of the German nationalists was nonexistent :how many votes did von Schönerer obtain ?
And, even the German nationalists preferred to remain a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, the same for the Czech nationalists .No intelligent person wanted to dismantle the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, not in Austria-Hungary, not in Germany .
Austria could not unify Germany,as the majority of the inhabitants of Austria were Slaves .That's why the Kleindeutsche Lösung was accepted :the Grossdeutsche Lösung would mean that the Czechs would become German citizens .
It is not wrong. Germany has existed for hundreds of years, but if only became a nation-state in 19871 which didn’t include all Germans, most notably the Austrians. Plenty of Germans wrote about their “fatherland” way before 1871. The Habsburgs had dominated the First Reich, the Holy RomanEmpire of the German Nation. After that was dissolved, the most powerful German states in the German Confederation were Austria and Prussia.

The German people have existed for a long time before 1871. The Polish people have existed for a long time before 1918. The Italian people have existed for a long time before 1861.

Schönerer never got far in politics because he was an anti-Semitic and anti-Slavic far-right bigot. His views were not what most pan-Germans advocated.

Can you provide a source that in 1866 most of Austria was inhabited by Slavs (you posted ‘slaves’)?

Also, provide a source that the German nationalists in Austria wanted to remain as part of Austria-Hungary rather than an Anschluss with Germany.

The reason why Austria never unified Germany was because the Prussians defeated the Austrians.
Historically, Austrians were regarded as ethnic Germans and viewed themselves as such. The Austrian lands (including Bohemia etc.) were part of the Holy Roman Empire and the German Confederation until the Austro-Prussian War in 1866 which resulted in Prussia expelling the Austrian Empire from the Confederation. Thus, when Germany was founded as a nation-state in 1871, Austria was not a part of it.
Here’s a question for you, during WW1 when Edward VII asked Franz Joseph to abandon Austria-Hungary's alliance with Germany for co-operation with England, Joseph replied "I am a German prince."

Why did Franz Joseph think of himself as a GERMAN Prince?

You still never answered my question. What proof are you looking for exactly? I have shown you that the Austrians historically regarded themselves as Germans, that is of course not the case today because after WW2 it took a few decades for the Austrians to develop their own national identity. However, don’t try and rewrite history.

A German article about the subject:

https://www.derstandard.at/story/326110 ... als-nation

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 11 Oct 2021 16:43

Why don’t we ask the German nationalist Ernst Moritz Arndt (1769-1860) and one of the main founders of the German nationalist movement where he regarded the fatherland of the Germans (“Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland?”)?
What is the German’s fatherland?
Is it Prussia, is it Swabia?
Is it where the vines blossom on the Rhine?
Is it where the gull moves on the Belt?
Oh no! No! No!
His fatherland must be bigger!

What is the German’s fatherland?
Is it Bavaria, is it Styria?
Is it where the cattle of the Marsi roam?
Is it where the citizens of the Mark mold iron?
Oh no! No! No!
His fatherland must be bigger!

What is the German’s fatherland?
Is it Pomerania, Westphalia?
Is it where the sand of dunes blows?
Is it where the Danube rushes along?
Oh no! No! No!
His fatherland must be bigger!

What is the German’s fatherland?
So name the great land to me!
Is it the land of the Swiss, is it Tyrol?
The land and people that please me well!
But no! No! No!
His fatherland must be bigger!

What is the German’s fatherland?
So name the great land to me!
Certainly it must be Austria,
Rich in victories and in honors?
Oh no! No! No!
His fatherland must be bigger!

What is the German’s fatherland?
So name the great land to me, finally!
As far as the German tongue sounds
And sings songs to God in heaven:
That shall it be, shall it be!
That, brave German, call that yours!

That is the German’s fatherland,
Where oaths are sworn with curled hand,
Where loyalty blazes brightly from the eye
And love sits warmly in the heart.
That shall it be,
That, brave German, shall it be!

That is the German’s fatherland,
Where rage wipes out the foreign junk,
Where every Frenchman is called enemy,
Where every German is called friend.
That shall it be,
The whole of Germany it should be.

The whole Germany shall it be,
O God from heaven, see within
And give us real German courage,
That we may love it faithfully and well.
That shall it be,
The whole of Germany it should be.
Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland?
Ist’s Preußenland? Ist’s Schwabenland?
Ist’s, wo am Rhein die Rebe blüht?
Ist’s, wo am Belt die Möwe zieht?
O nein, nein, nein!
Sein Vaterland muss größer sein!

Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland?
Ist’s Bayerland? Ist’s Steierland?
Ist’s, wo des Marsen Rind sich streckt?
Ist’s, wo der Märker Eisen reckt?
O nein, nein, nein!
Sein Vaterland muss größer sein!

Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland?
Ist’s Pommerland? Westfalenland?
Ist’s, wo der Sand der Dünen weht?
Ist’s, wo die Donau brausend geht?
O nein, nein, nein!
Sein Vaterland muss größer sein!

Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland?
So nenne mir das große Land!
Ist’s Land der Schweizer? Ist’s Tirol?
Das Land und Volk gefiel mir wohl.
Doch nein, nein, nein!
Sein Vaterland muss größer sein!

Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland?
So nenne mir das große Land!
Gewiss, es ist das Österreich,
An Ehren und an Siegen reich?
O nein, nein, nein!
Sein Vaterland muss größer sein!

Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland?
So nenne endlich mir das Land!
So weit die deutsche Zunge klingt
Und Gott im Himmel Lieder singt:
Das soll es sein! Das soll es sein!
Das, wackrer Deutscher, nenne dein!

Das ist des Deutschen Vaterland,
Wo Eide schwört der Druck der Hand,
Wo Treue hell vom Auge blitzt
Und Liebe warm im Herzen sitzt.
Das soll es sein! Das soll es sein!
Das, wackrer Deutscher, nenne dein!

Das ist des Deutschen Vaterland,
Wo Zorn vertilgt den welschen Tand,
Wo jeder Franzmann heißet Feind,
Wo jeder Deutsche heißet Freund.
Das soll es sein! das soll es sein!
Das ganze Deutschland soll es sein!

Das ganze Deutschland soll es sein!
O Gott vom Himmel, sieh darein
Und gib uns rechten deutschen Mut,
Dass wir es lieben treu und gut!
Das soll es sein! Das soll es sein!
Das ganze Deutschland soll es sein!
The words on the Reichstag in 1916 were “Dem Deutschen Volke” (To the German People). It wasn’t dedicated to the German Empire or a German Emperor, it was dedicated specifically to the German nation.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 11 Oct 2021 20:51

Population of the Austrian Empire in 1851 was 36,4 million of whom 21,6 % ( including those who spoke Yiddisch ) had German as native language .
In 1868 the German speaking people were 25,2 % ,because most of the Italians had left Austria .
Austria of today had a population of 4,4 million in 1861.
In 1910 the population of Cisleithania was 28 million of whom 10 million had German as native language .
Thus :Austria in 1851 :majority was Slavic .
The same for 1868 .
And, a big part of those with German as native language were living outside present Austria and even outside Cisleithania .
That FJ told George V that he was a German Prince is totally irrelevant for the question if the people living in Cisleithania and Transleithania and had German as native language,considered themselves as Germans and wanted an Anschluss with Germany .
You have given no proof that these people considered themselves as German and wanted an Anschluss . A proof would be a strong party that wanted the Anschluss .
PS : labeling Schönerer as right wing is not correct as you cant use todays political words for some one who lived 100 years ago .
About Arndt : he was a German , not an Austrian ,thus what he said is irrelevant for the question how many people in Austria and Hungary considered themselves as German and wanted the Anschluss with Germany .
Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland was composed in 1814 during the war of liberation against France .
There were nationalists in Germany who wanted to annex present Austria (Bismarck,a realist ,stopped this stupid idea ) , but they were a small minority .If there were nationalists in AH who wanted to be annexed by Prussia (and there is no proof that they had any support from the population ) ,they were an almost non existent minority.
There was no rebellion in AH against the Emperor with as aim to be annexed by Germany .
There were no plans in Germany to invade,occupy and annex Austria .
I have not to provide a proof that the German speaking people in Austria preferred to remain subjects of Franz Joseph , although this proof exists : they REMAINED citizens of Austria, thus they wanted to be citizens of Austria : if they had wanted to secede from Austria, they would have done it .
YOU have to prove
1 ) that they wanted the Anschluss
2 ) and if they wanted the Anschluss ,why there was no Anschluss .
There is no proof that the words : Dem Deutschen Volke referred to the German speaking people in Austria :the Reichstag was the expression of the population of Germany,while the Reichsrat represented the different states .
The words were indicating democracy and unification in GERMANY .Not unification outside Germany .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 11 Oct 2021 22:01

ljadw wrote:
11 Oct 2021 20:51
Population of the Austrian Empire in 1851 was 36,4 million of whom 21,6 % ( including those who spoke Yiddisch ) had German as native language .
In 1868 the German speaking people were 25,2 % ,because most of the Italians had left Austria .
Austria of today had a population of 4,4 million in 1861.
In 1910 the population of Cisleithania was 28 million of whom 10 million had German as native language .
Thus :Austria in 1851 :majority was Slavic .
The same for 1868 .
And, a big part of those with German as native language were living outside present Austria and even outside Cisleithania .
That FJ told George V that he was a German Prince is totally irrelevant for the question if the people living in Cisleithania and Transleithania and had German as native language,considered themselves as Germans and wanted an Anschluss with Germany .
You have given no proof that these people considered themselves as German and wanted an Anschluss . A proof would be a strong party that wanted the Anschluss .
PS : labeling Schönerer as right wing is not correct as you cant use todays political words for some one who lived 100 years ago .
About Arndt : he was a German , not an Austrian ,thus what he said is irrelevant for the question how many people in Austria and Hungary considered themselves as German and wanted the Anschluss with Germany .
Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland was composed in 1814 during the war of liberation against France .
There were nationalists in Germany who wanted to annex present Austria (Bismarck,a realist ,stopped this stupid idea ) , but they were a small minority .If there were nationalists in AH who wanted to be annexed by Prussia (and there is no proof that they had any support from the population ) ,they were an almost non existent minority.
There was no rebellion in AH against the Emperor with as aim to be annexed by Germany .
There were no plans in Germany to invade,occupy and annex Austria .
I have not to provide a proof that the German speaking people in Austria preferred to remain subjects of Franz Joseph , although this proof exists : they REMAINED citizens of Austria, thus they wanted to be citizens of Austria : if they had wanted to secede from Austria, they would have done it .
YOU have to prove
1 ) that they wanted the Anschluss
2 ) and if they wanted the Anschluss ,why there was no Anschluss .
There is no proof that the words : Dem Deutschen Volke referred to the German speaking people in Austria :the Reichstag was the expression of the population of Germany,while the Reichsrat represented the different states .
The words were indicating democracy and unification in GERMANY .Not unification outside Germany .
You’re confusing Austrian with the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. Austria itself has always been predominantly
Inhabited by ethnic Germans (unless of course we discuss the Celtic tribes settling all over Europe prior to the Germanic tribes).
The Franco-Prussian War and the establishment of a German Empire in 1871, headed by Prussia and pointedly excluding any of the Austrian lands, let the state turn away from Germany and turn its gaze towards the Balkan Peninsula. Thereby the influence of pan-Germanism was diminished in the Habsburg territories, but as the term "Austrians" still was used supra-national, German-speaking Austrians considered themselves Germans (and were counted as such in the censuses). After Bismarck had excluded Austria from Germany, many Austrians faced a dilemma about their identity which prompted the Social Democratic Leader Otto Bauer to state that the dilemma was "the conflict between our Austrian and German character."[28] The state as a whole tried to work out a sense of a distinctively Austrian identity.
Image

Why was Austria a part of the German Confederation?

But, why did Franz Joseph call himself a GERMAN Prince and not an AUSTRIAN Prince? He was from AUSTRIA.

Why did one of main founders of German nationalism state that “certainly it must be Austria” when referring to the German Fatherland?

You don’t get to avoid answering those questions by stating one is “irrelevant” and that one was “German”.

Otto von Bismarck wanted Prussia to be the supreme German state and wouldn’t settle for second best to Austria. Plus, Prussia was predominantly Protestant and Austria was predominantly Catholic, it had nothing to do with him viewing the Austrians as not being Germans or whatever spin on why Austria never joined the German Empire you’re trying to convey.

Perhaps you should read about the Austria-Prussia rivalry in the 1800s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria–Prussia_rivalry

Many pan-German Austrians showed loyalty to Bismarck and Germany. Many pan-German Austrians wanted Austria to remain an independent country. In fact, why did the Austrian fascists in the 1930s who opposed the Anschluss call Austria a “German state”?

The Austrian Germans were no different to for example the Sudeten Germans. They were ethnic Germans who happened to live outside of the borders of Germany. So what?

Again, and again, and again, you keep avoiding my simple question: what “proof” are you wanting to show that the Austrians were historically regarded as Germans?

The text was referring specifically to the German people (VOLKE) not the country Germany (DEUTSCHLAND). Do you not understand the difference?

This one single proof that you seem to want is a fallacy and is no different to when Holocaust deniers want someone to “prove” the Holocaust.
Last edited by George L Gregory on 11 Oct 2021 22:16, edited 3 times in total.

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 11 Oct 2021 22:11

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1880 map of Austria-Hungary. Hmmmm… which ethnic group inhabited the Austrian territories?

The map was published in Andrees Handatlas and was created by the German geographer Richard Andree.

And, as everyone can see, your claim that Austria was predominantly inhabited by Slavs by the year 1880 is a load of balderdash! You never stop posting absolute bilge!

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 11 Oct 2021 22:40

A 1935 textbook in Austria stated:
We Austrians are Germans. We belong to the German people. Whoever is an Austrian is at the same time a good German. The federal chancellor Dr. Dollfuss, who died for our fatherland, said ‘We happily recognise our Germaneness.
K. Korostelina, History Education in the Formation of Social Identity: Toward a Culture of Peace, page 108.

The book mentions that prior to WW2, history textbooks in Austria emphasised that Austrians were Germans and that a separate Austrian national identity did not emerge until after WW2.

Even as the early 1800s, the German poet Friedrich Schlegel made a “Proclamation to the Bavarians” and said:
We [Austrians] are Germans every bit as much as you are . . .
Terry Pinkard, Hegel: A Biography, page 286.

As the British historian Adam Zamoyski wrote:
In collaboration with Josef von Pilat, editor of the Österreichischer Beobachter, and with the help of Adam Müller and Friedrich Schlegel, Metternich and Gentz projected a vision of Austria as the spiritual leader of a new Germany, drawing her strength and inspiration from a romanticised view of a medieval Catholic past.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 12 Oct 2021 06:18

George L Gregory wrote:
11 Oct 2021 22:11
Image

1880 map of Austria-Hungary. Hmmmm… which ethnic group inhabited the Austrian territories?

The map was published in Andrees Handatlas and was created by the German geographer Richard Andree.

And, as everyone can see, your claim that Austria was predominantly inhabited by Slavs by the year 1880 is a load of balderdash! You never stop posting absolute bilge!
Population of Cisleithania (Austria was officially used only in 1915 ) was in 1910 28 million,of whom 10 million ( including Jews ) had German as native language .Some 36 % .
Source : census of 1910.
It was impossible that in 1880 those with German as native language could have been the majority .
PS : ''Austria '' as we know it today did not exist in 1880 .In 1880,it was a part of Cisleithania,without its own parliament ,without its own government .
Besides : your map is good for under the bus .It makes no difference between Czechs and Slovaks ( they have the same colour ) and, it is not so that,because a German was labeling the inhabitants of Austria as it exist today as Germans, that this is the truth .
The same Andree made also a map about the distribution of those he decided arbitrarily as being Jews,although he had not the right to do this .
There is no proof that those Andree claimed to be Germans considered themselves as Germans .
German was and is not some one who had German as native language ,but some one who considered himself as German .
How many of those in AH labeled as German by Andree,were volunteering in 1870 to fight with the Germans against France ?

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 12 Oct 2021 06:42

George L Gregory wrote:
11 Oct 2021 22:01
ljadw wrote:
11 Oct 2021 20:51
Population of the Austrian Empire in 1851 was 36,4 million of whom 21,6 % ( including those who spoke Yiddisch ) had German as native language .
In 1868 the German speaking people were 25,2 % ,because most of the Italians had left Austria .
Austria of today had a population of 4,4 million in 1861.
In 1910 the population of Cisleithania was 28 million of whom 10 million had German as native language .
Thus :Austria in 1851 :majority was Slavic .
The same for 1868 .
And, a big part of those with German as native language were living outside present Austria and even outside Cisleithania .
That FJ told George V that he was a German Prince is totally irrelevant for the question if the people living in Cisleithania and Transleithania and had German as native language,considered themselves as Germans and wanted an Anschluss with Germany .
You have given no proof that these people considered themselves as German and wanted an Anschluss . A proof would be a strong party that wanted the Anschluss .
PS : labeling Schönerer as right wing is not correct as you cant use todays political words for some one who lived 100 years ago .
About Arndt : he was a German , not an Austrian ,thus what he said is irrelevant for the question how many people in Austria and Hungary considered themselves as German and wanted the Anschluss with Germany .
Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland was composed in 1814 during the war of liberation against France .
There were nationalists in Germany who wanted to annex present Austria (Bismarck,a realist ,stopped this stupid idea ) , but they were a small minority .If there were nationalists in AH who wanted to be annexed by Prussia (and there is no proof that they had any support from the population ) ,they were an almost non existent minority.
There was no rebellion in AH against the Emperor with as aim to be annexed by Germany .
There were no plans in Germany to invade,occupy and annex Austria .
I have not to provide a proof that the German speaking people in Austria preferred to remain subjects of Franz Joseph , although this proof exists : they REMAINED citizens of Austria, thus they wanted to be citizens of Austria : if they had wanted to secede from Austria, they would have done it .
YOU have to prove
1 ) that they wanted the Anschluss
2 ) and if they wanted the Anschluss ,why there was no Anschluss .
There is no proof that the words : Dem Deutschen Volke referred to the German speaking people in Austria :the Reichstag was the expression of the population of Germany,while the Reichsrat represented the different states .
The words were indicating democracy and unification in GERMANY .Not unification outside Germany .
You’re confusing Austrian with the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. Austria itself has always been predominantly
Inhabited by ethnic Germans (unless of course we discuss the Celtic tribes settling all over Europe prior to the Germanic tribes).
The Franco-Prussian War and the establishment of a German Empire in 1871, headed by Prussia and pointedly excluding any of the Austrian lands, let the state turn away from Germany and turn its gaze towards the Balkan Peninsula. Thereby the influence of pan-Germanism was diminished in the Habsburg territories, but as the term "Austrians" still was used supra-national, German-speaking Austrians considered themselves Germans (and were counted as such in the censuses). After Bismarck had excluded Austria from Germany, many Austrians faced a dilemma about their identity which prompted the Social Democratic Leader Otto Bauer to state that the dilemma was "the conflict between our Austrian and German character."[28] The state as a whole tried to work out a sense of a distinctively Austrian identity.
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Why was Austria a part of the German Confederation?

But, why did Franz Joseph call himself a GERMAN Prince and not an AUSTRIAN Prince? He was from AUSTRIA.

Why did one of main founders of German nationalism state that “certainly it must be Austria” when referring to the German Fatherland?

You don’t get to avoid answering those questions by stating one is “irrelevant” and that one was “German”.

Otto von Bismarck wanted Prussia to be the supreme German state and wouldn’t settle for second best to Austria. Plus, Prussia was predominantly Protestant and Austria was predominantly Catholic, it had nothing to do with him viewing the Austrians as not being Germans or whatever spin on why Austria never joined the German Empire you’re trying to convey.

Perhaps you should read about the Austria-Prussia rivalry in the 1800s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria–Prussia_rivalry

Many pan-German Austrians showed loyalty to Bismarck and Germany. Many pan-German Austrians wanted Austria to remain an independent country. In fact, why did the Austrian fascists in the 1930s who opposed the Anschluss call Austria a “German state”?

The Austrian Germans were no different to for example the Sudeten Germans. They were ethnic Germans who happened to live outside of the borders of Germany. So what?

Again, and again, and again, you keep avoiding my simple question: what “proof” are you wanting to show that the Austrians were historically regarded as Germans?

The text was referring specifically to the German people (VOLKE) not the country Germany (DEUTSCHLAND). Do you not understand the difference?

This one single proof that you seem to want is a fallacy and is no different to when Holocaust deniers want someone to “prove” the Holocaust.
I do not want a proof that is showing that the ''Austrians '' were historically regarded as Germans, by non Austrians , but a proof that the Austrians regarded themselves as Germans before 1914 .
What German nationalists are claiming is totally irrelevant .
And, about the Sudeten Germans ( a neologism ,as they were not called Sudeten Germans before 1914 ) ,there was a big difference between them and the Austrians ,before 1914 .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 12 Oct 2021 08:35

ljadw wrote:
12 Oct 2021 06:18
Population of Cisleithania (Austria was officially used only in 1915 ) was in 1910 28 million,of whom 10 million ( including Jews ) had German as native language .Some 36 % .
Source : census of 1910.
It was impossible that in 1880 those with German as native language could have been the majority .
PS : ''Austria '' as we know it today did not exist in 1880 .In 1880,it was a part of Cisleithania,without its own parliament ,without its own government .
Besides : your map is good for under the bus .It makes no difference between Czechs and Slovaks ( they have the same colour ) and, it is not so that,because a German was labeling the inhabitants of Austria as it exist today as Germans, that this is the truth .
The same Andree made also a map about the distribution of those he decided arbitrarily as being Jews,although he had not the right to do this .
There is no proof that those Andree claimed to be Germans considered themselves as Germans .
German was and is not some one who had German as native language ,but some one who considered himself as German .
How many of those in AH labeled as German by Andree,were volunteering in 1870 to fight with the Germans against France ?
You need to stop lying. Cisleithania referred to the unofficial areas of the northern and western part of Austria-Hungary.

I think you may need to research the historical definition of “German”. The historical definition was a native German-speaker. The emergence of Germans as an ethnic group was formed during the Holy Roman Empire. Even today speaking German is the crux of an ethnic German identity.

You can read about the German-Austrians in the Austrian-Hungarian Empire:

https://ww1.habsburger.net/en/chapters/ ... g-monarchy

The two biggest ethnic groups in the empire were the Germans which inhabited the Austrian territories and the Hungarians who inhabited the Hungarian territories, the other ethnic groups were minority groups like Poles, Czechs, etc.

The 1910 census lists Germans as the majority.

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