Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

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wm
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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by wm » 03 Nov 2021 20:46

In 1939, when Litvinov was dismissed, I began to work on foreign affairs. Stalin said to me, "Purge the ministry of Jews." Thank God for these words! Jews formed an absolute majority in the leadership and among the ambassadors. It wasn't good. Latvians and Jews ... And each one drew a whole crowd of his people along with him.
Moreover, they regarded my arrival in office with condescension and jeered at the measures I began to implement... Of course, Stalin was guarded where Jews were concerned.
Nevertheless, the person most devoted to him was Kaganovich. Behind Kaganovich's back, Beria used to say, "Lazar, that Israelite..."
Stalin was not an anti-Semite, as he is sometimes portrayed. He appreciated many qualities in the Jewish people: capacity for hard work, group solidarity, and political activeness. Their political activeness is unquestionably higher than average.
That's why they are passionate advocates at either extreme. Under conditions obtaining during the Khrushchev years, the second group came to the top. They bitterly hated Stalin.
Molotov Remembers: Inside Kremlin Politics by V. M. Molotov

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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by David Thompson » 04 Nov 2021 04:54

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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by wm » 04 Nov 2021 22:30

I don't especially remember people including page numbers here - but maybe that's me. The majority of my books are in the Kindle format and there are no hard-coded parge numbers in them (although this one has - 187 of 416).

The point is the communists assumed from day one that the destruction of the so-called parasitic classes was required (the parasitic classes were the direct equivalent of the Jews in Nazi ideology). But the destruction of races, nations was unthinkable and against the core tenants of communism.
Stalin, a true believer, certainly wouldn't do it.
He pacified/punished misbehaving, making trouble people/nations and in the end, he "took care" of the Soviet Jews - for their presumed and real support for Jewish nationalism and Israel.
But that happened long after millions of Poles, Ukrainians, others had become victims of his "pacifying" efforts.
In fact, the planned persecution of Jews would be relatively light in comparison with his earlier "efforts."

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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by SloveneLiberal » 04 Nov 2021 23:45

Well during his conversation with Roosewelt in Yalta Stalin said he is a Zionist in principle, so he supports the establishment of Israel, but that this question is a difficult one.

But after Soviet army invaded Baltic states and Poland in 1939/40 Zionism was persecuted hardly and labeled as ''Jewish nationalistic counter-revolution''. Also Comintern was even before supporting Arab riots and killings of the Jews in Palestine in 30s. So what changed?

The change was connected with USSR policy that after the start of WW2 and German attack it tried to encourage also patriotic sentiments to bolster its war efforts. Part of that was also Jewish Anti-fascist committee. On the other hand in Palestine too Jewish left established Committee for the support of Soviet union and its efforts in war against Third Reich the bitter enemy of Jews. Soviets however remained kind of neutral concerning Zionist hopes, until Yalta. It seems that this was first sign that Zionist wishes would be took in to the USSR foreign policy account and that in this question USSR and USA are coming closer.

Later USSR supported the establishement of Israel ( two state solution for Palestine ) because it hoped to have an ally which would help them drive British empire out of middle east. Also Arab regimes looked to conservative and pro-British. That was part of Stalin's strategy to expand the Soviet sphere of influence after victory in World War II.

But when Golda Meir raised the issue of the emigration of Soviet Jews to Israel, the answer was a strict “No.” The official Soviet position was that all Soviet Jews, like all Soviet people in general, were extremely happy and didn’t need any ''Promised Land''. Israeli politicians couldn’t accept this, and they soon turned to the U.S. as their main ally. USA on the other hand supported unlimited Jewsih immigration to Israel.

Israel’s new alliance with the U.S. had severe consequences in the coming years and decades. For example, in 1952, 13 members of the Soviet-based Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee were arrested and executed.

Stalin was known very well for his collectivization of guilt and what he considered treason on whole nations. That's why before his death he was preparing harsher persecutions of Jews in USSR.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3622371?re ... b_contents

https://www.rbth.com/history/327040-uss ... ds-to-foes

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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by wm » 05 Nov 2021 00:18

Although in 1945 he allowed ~300,000 Polish Jews to return to Poland (despite the fact he generously granted them mandatory Soviet citizenship and forbade them to leave Russia earlier) and then to emigrate to the West.

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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by Futurist » 10 Nov 2021 00:43

wm wrote:
04 Nov 2021 22:30
In fact, the planned persecution of Jews would be relatively light in comparison with his earlier "efforts."
Just how light are we talking about here?

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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by Futurist » 10 Nov 2021 00:44

wm wrote:
05 Nov 2021 00:18
Although in 1945 he allowed ~300,000 Polish Jews to return to Poland (despite the fact he generously granted them mandatory Soviet citizenship and forbade them to leave Russia earlier) and then to emigrate to the West.
One of my Jewish great-uncles is one such example, though I think that he left a bit after 1945, with him first doing some studying or something like that in Lviv before he ultimately decided to immigrate to Israel. He lived in Sarny, Poland before the war and was able to flee to the Soviet interior in 1941, after which point he served in the Red Army and was seriously wounded in combat but survived and recovered. He was my Jewish great-grandfather's first-cousin.

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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by Futurist » 10 Nov 2021 00:46

michael mills wrote:
26 Apr 2010 06:40
reportably what Stalin had in mind was after any potential Jewish leadership was destroyed {such as the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee} was that the mass of USSR Jewry would be transported to labor camps...
There is absolutely no evidence of any such plan by Stalin, only rumours.

It is likely that he was planning another round of terror, but there is no evidence that it was targeted specifically at Jews. If Stalin had lived to implement a new Great Terror, it is more likely that it would have been aimed at a variety of targets, including potential rivals within the Soviet Establishment, like the earlier purges, rather than at a single ethnic group.

Furthermore, the sources quoted by PF do not support his claim of a plan by Stalin to deport Soviet Jews to labour camps. On the contrary, his sources point out the extremely dubious nature of the claims about such a plan, and the total lack of any real evidence for its existence.
Do you think that prominent Soviet politicians such as Molotov and Mikoyan would have likewise gotten purged and murdered in an early 1950s purge by Stalin had he lived?

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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by wm » 10 Nov 2021 19:44

Molotov said later he would be killed had Stalin lived a year longer.


Futurist wrote:
10 Nov 2021 00:43
Just how light are we talking about here?
Just the usual deportations of unreliable people.
Some say Stalin was informed by people he trusted that the accusations (including against Jewish doctors) were fake and in the end, he wouldn't do it.

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Re:

Post by joeylonglegs » 16 Nov 2021 16:01

Benoit Douville wrote:
23 Jul 2003 23:41
The megalomaniac Stalin did commit Holocaust in Ukraine. About 7 to 10 Million people died by deliberate extermination in 1932-33:

Http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine

Regards
Do you have historical evidence that the 1932-33 famine was a deliberate extermination attempt against the Ukrainian people by Stalin?

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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by mikegriffith1 » 21 Nov 2021 17:58

It is an indication of the biased nature of most Western history books that Hitler is consistently painted as the most evil leader of the WWII era, when in fact Stalin was far more evil than Hitler. Hitler was certainly evil, but Stalin killed millions of more people than Hitler killed and imposed a tyranny on the Soviet Union that was markedly worse than the tyranny that Hitler imposed on Germany.

One book that documents this fact is Sean McMeekin's recent book Stalin's War: A New History of World War II.

If we had had a sensible, anti-communist president at the time, instead of the Soviet-loving FDR, who was literally surrounded by Soviet spies and sympathizers, we would have done all we could to destroy the Soviet Union instead of sending Stalin billions of dollars' worth of military and logistical aid just in time to keep the Soviet regime from collapsing.

With the Soviet Union destroyed, we could have turned our attention to Germany, aided the German resistance, shamed the Nazis over their murder of the Jews, and made it clear to Hitler that further aggression and/or persecution of the Jews would mean the Nazis' obliteration by America and the Allies.

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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by Linkagain » 21 Nov 2021 19:30


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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by snpol » 22 Nov 2021 08:36

wm wrote:
03 Nov 2021 20:46
In 1939, when Litvinov was dismissed, I began to work on foreign affairs. Stalin said to me, "Purge the ministry of Jews." Thank God for these words! Jews formed an absolute majority in the leadership and among the ambassadors. It wasn't good. Latvians and Jews ... And each one drew a whole crowd of his people along with him.
Moreover, they regarded my arrival in office with condescension and jeered at the measures I began to implement... Of course, Stalin was guarded where Jews were concerned.
Nevertheless, the person most devoted to him was Kaganovich. Behind Kaganovich's back, Beria used to say, "Lazar, that Israelite..."
Stalin was not an anti-Semite, as he is sometimes portrayed. He appreciated many qualities in the Jewish people: capacity for hard work, group solidarity, and political activeness. Their political activeness is unquestionably higher than average.
That's why they are passionate advocates at either extreme. Under conditions obtaining during the Khrushchev years, the second group came to the top. They bitterly hated Stalin.
Molotov Remembers: Inside Kremlin Politics by V. M. Molotov
You refer to the book
"Molotov Remembers: Inside Kremlin Politics by V. M. Molotov"
In fact apparently you mean the following one
https://www.amazon.com/Molotov-Remember ... 1566637155
"Molotov Remembers: Inside Kremlin Politics".
by V. M. Molotov (Author), Feliz Chuev (Author), Albert Resis (Editor)
Vyacheslav Molotov never wrote this book and Feliks Chuyev really wrote another book. It is its full text.
https://booksonline.com.ua/view.php?book=94672&page=32
"140 conversations with Molotov".
Namely this book should be quoted. Another edited or/and adapted books are unreliable as a source of information.
We read in the book (p.32)
[Чуев] – О создании государства Израиль. Американцы были против…
[Молотов] – Кроме нас, все были против. Кроме меня и Сталина. Меня некоторые спрашивали: почему пошли на это? Мы – сторонники интернациональной свободы, почему мы должны быть против, когда, собственно говоря, отказать – значит повести какую-то враждебную политику в национальном вопросе.
[Chuyev] - About the creation of the state of Israel. The Americans were against ...
[Molotov] - Except for us, everyone was against it. Except for me and Stalin. Some people asked me: why did they go for it? We are supporters of international freedom, why should we be against it, when, in fact, to refuse is to pursue some kind of hostile policy on the national question.
On the p.95 we read (Molotov speaks)
В 1939 году, когда сняли Литвинова и я пришел на иностранные дела, Сталин сказал мне: «Убери из наркомата евреев». Слава богу, что сказал! Дело в том, что евреи составляли там абсолютное большинство в руководстве и среди послов. Это, конечно, неправильно. Латыши и евреи… И каждый за собой целый хвост тащил. Причем, свысока смотрели, когда я пришел, издевались над теми мерами, которые я начал проводить…
Сталин, конечно, был настороже в отношении евреев. Тем не менее, самым преданным ему был Каганович. Берия за спиной Кагановича говорил: «Лазарь, этот Израиль…»
Сталин не был антисемитом, как его порой пытаются изобразить. Он отмечал в еврейском народе многие качества: работоспособность, спаянность, политическую активность. У них активность выше средней, безусловно. Поэтому есть очень горячие в одну сторону и очень горячие в другую. В условиях хрущевского периода эти, вторые, подняли голову, они к Сталину относятся с лютой ненавистью.
n 1939, when Litvinov was removed and I came to foreign affairs, Stalin told me: "Get the Jews out of the People's Commissariat." Thank God he said! The fact is that the Jews constituted an absolute majority there in the leadership and among the ambassadors. This is, of course, wrong. Latvians and Jews ... And each of them pulled a whole tail. Moreover, they looked down on me when I came, scoffed at the measures that I began to carry out ...
Stalin, of course, was on the lookout for Jews. Nevertheless, Kaganovich was the most loyal to him. Behind Kaganovich's back, Beria said: "Lazar, this Israel ..."
Stalin was not an anti-Semite, as he is sometimes portrayed. He noted many qualities in the Jewish people: efficiency, solidarity, political activity. Their activity is above average, of course. Therefore, they are very hot in one direction and very hot in the other. In the conditions of the Khrushchev period, these, the second part, raised their heads, they treat Stalin with fierce hatred.
My translation is 'as is', word by word while the quote above was translated to take into account Russian idiomatic expressions and translate Soviet realities into understandable form. So the quote above is quite correct one.

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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by mikegriffith1 » 04 Dec 2021 16:14

He didn't just plan it. He was in the process of doing it when he died in 1953. There's a good documentary on this on Amazon Prime titled Stalin's Last Plot.

Stalin made life miserable for Soviet Jews during the war. Following the Soviet invasion of Poland, Stalin began deporting Jews to Siberia. In 1948, Stalin began another anti-Jewish push. Soviet media portrayed Soviet Jews as a potential fifth column. Persecution of Jews became common in some parts of the Soviet Union.

In November 1948, Soviet authorities launched a campaign to liquidate what was left of Jewish culture. The leading members of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee were arrested. They were charged with treason, bourgeois nationalism, and planning to set up a Jewish republic in Crimea to serve American interests.

During the night of August 12–13, 1952, known as the "Night of the Murdered Poets," Stalin had 13 of the most prominent Yiddish writers in the Soviet Union murdered.

In a 1 December 1952 Politburo session, Stalin announced: "Every Jewish nationalist is the agent of the American intelligence service. Jewish nationalists think that their nation was saved by the USA. . . They think they are indebted to the Americans. Among doctors, there are many Jewish nationalists."

Stalin had recently announced the alleged existence of the Doctor's Plot, a supposed plot of Jewish doctors to kill Soviet leaders at the behest of the Americans. Soviet authorities were in the process of rounding up Jewish doctors and extracting "confessions" from when Stalin died. Fortunately, Stalin's successor, Beria, had the doctors released and cleared their names.

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Re: Re:

Post by George L Gregory » 05 Dec 2021 14:01

joeylonglegs wrote:
16 Nov 2021 16:01
Benoit Douville wrote:
23 Jul 2003 23:41
The megalomaniac Stalin did commit Holocaust in Ukraine. About 7 to 10 Million people died by deliberate extermination in 1932-33:

Http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine

Regards
Do you have historical evidence that the 1932-33 famine was a deliberate extermination attempt against the Ukrainian people by Stalin?
That’s debated amongst scholars. Some scholars suggest it was carried out by Joseph Stalin to stop any sort of Ukrainian independence. Several countries regard it as a genocide.
There are also those who blame a systematic set of policies perpetrated by the Soviet government under Stalin designed to exterminate the Ukrainians.

Scholarly positions are diverse. Raphael Lemkin, James Mace, Norman Naimark, Timothy Snyder and Anne Applebaum considered the Holodomor a genocide and the intentional result of Stalinist policies.
However,
Robert Davies, Stephen Kotkin, and Stephen Wheatcroft reject the notion that Stalin intentionally wanted to kill the Ukrainians, but exacerbated the situation by enacting bad policies and ignorance of the problem. In 1991, American historian Mark Tauger considered the Holodomor primarily the result of natural conditions and failed economic policy, not intentional state policy.

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