21 st Panzer, Normandy
Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
Thank you very much for clearing that up for me. And yes it's the images of Heidi that I've seen, complete with the turret stowage bin.
There's also the image of the abandoned B or C dated to August 1944 with the green camo over dark yellow and three pairs of road wheels affixed to the hull side ( there're several models released of this vehicle). This thread from a gaming site has the image I've seen- http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=250501
I am now much the wiser.
There's also the image of the abandoned B or C dated to August 1944 with the green camo over dark yellow and three pairs of road wheels affixed to the hull side ( there're several models released of this vehicle). This thread from a gaming site has the image I've seen- http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=250501
I am now much the wiser.
Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
What kind of Recon Vehicles, armored cars, did they have ?
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
They had SdKfz 221, 222, 223, 232, 233 and 250/9 in their two "armoured car" companies. The Recce Bn was entirely German in its equipment and was in fact the Lehr Recce Bn which was transferred to 21 PD in late 1943.
Alan
Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
Awesome ThanksAlanmccoubrey wrote: ↑16 Nov 2021, 11:22They had SdKfz 221, 222, 223, 232, 233 and 250/9 in their two "armoured car" companies. The Recce Bn was entirely German in its equipment and was in fact the Lehr Recce Bn which was transferred to 21 PD in late 1943.
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
I should have given you the numbers I suppose
1. Kp. 9 x 250/3, 16 x 250/9
2. Kp. 6 x 233, 8 x 231 or 232, 6 x 221MG, 3 x 221 28mm, 7 x 222.
From Perigault's book on 21 PD and yes they did have the 1st Company equipped with the 250/9 rather than the more normal 2nd.
1. Kp. 9 x 250/3, 16 x 250/9
2. Kp. 6 x 233, 8 x 231 or 232, 6 x 221MG, 3 x 221 28mm, 7 x 222.
From Perigault's book on 21 PD and yes they did have the 1st Company equipped with the 250/9 rather than the more normal 2nd.
Alan
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
There is the possibility of confusion here. Note that the troops drawn on to complete the Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21, the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl., was NOT the same as the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. that was part of Panzer-Lehr-Division, but was rather the original, prewar Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl., which was originally part of the Kavallerie-Schule Hannover. It fought in Poland, France, and the East as Heerestruppen until October 1943, when it was used to fill out the Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21.Alanmccoubrey wrote: ↑16 Nov 2021, 11:22They had SdKfz 221, 222, 223, 232, 233 and 250/9 in their two "armoured car" companies. The Recce Bn was entirely German in its equipment and was in fact the Lehr Recce Bn which was transferred to 21 PD in late 1943.
Confusing enough for you?
The Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. was re-established on 21 January 1944 and renamed as the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. 130. on 4 April 1944. On 19 March 1944 it participated in Fall MARGARETHE in Hungary and returned with the rest of the division to France between 30 April and 15 May 1944.
As of D-Day the two different units comprised:
Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. 130. with the rest of the division was in reserve near – Nogent-le-Retrou (east of Alencon).
Stab m. Nachrichten-Zug (two Sd.Kz.250/3, two Sd.Kz.250/10, five Sd.Kfz.251/3, one Sd.Kz.251/8, two Sd.Kz.251/11)
1. Kp. (Pz.Späh.) (26 Sd.Kz.234/2)
2. Kp. (Pz.Späh.) (nine Sd.Kfz.250/5, 16 Sd.Kfz.250/9)
3. Kp. (le.SPW) (22 Sd.Kfz.250/1, two Sd.Kfz.250/2, four Sd.Kfz.250/7)
4. Kp. (le.SPW) (22 Sd.Kfz.250/1, two Sd.Kfz.250/2, four Sd.Kfz.250/7)
5. Kp. (schwere) (1 Sd.Kfz. 250/10, six Sd.Kfz.251/1, two Sd.Kfz.251/3, seven Sd.Kfz.251/7, six Sd.Kfz.251/9, four Sd.Kfz. 251/10
Versorgungs-Kp.
Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21 with its Gefechtsstand SE of Condé-sur-Noireau was commanded by a Major Waldow and comprised:
1. Kp. (nine le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 16 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/9))
2. Kp. (six s.Pz.-Späh.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 233), eight s.Pz.-Späh.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 231/232), 16 le. Pz.-Späh.Wg. (three Sd.Kfz. 221 (28/41cm), six Sd.Kfz. 221 (le.MG), seven Sd.Kfz. 221 (2cm)
3. Kp. (two le.Pz.-Fk.Wg (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 28 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/1), seven m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
4. Kp. (two le.Pz-.Fk.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 28 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/1), seven m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
5. (schwere) Kp. (27 m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
Versorgungs-Kp.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
Richard Anderson wrote: ↑17 Nov 2021, 23:43There is the possibility of confusion here. Note that the troops drawn on to complete the Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21, the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl., was NOT the same as the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. that was part of Panzer-Lehr-Division, but was rather the original, prewar Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl., which was originally part of the Kavallerie-Schule Hannover. It fought in Poland, France, and the East as Heerestruppen until October 1943, when it was used to fill out the Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21.Alanmccoubrey wrote: ↑16 Nov 2021, 11:22They had SdKfz 221, 222, 223, 232, 233 and 250/9 in their two "armoured car" companies. The Recce Bn was entirely German in its equipment and was in fact the Lehr Recce Bn which was transferred to 21 PD in late 1943.
Confusing enough for you?
The Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. was re-established on 21 January 1944 and renamed as the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. 130. on 4 April 1944. On 19 March 1944 it participated in Fall MARGARETHE in Hungary and returned with the rest of the division to France between 30 April and 15 May 1944.
As of D-Day the two different units comprised:
Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. 130. with the rest of the division was in reserve near – Nogent-le-Retrou (east of Alencon).
Stab m. Nachrichten-Zug (two Sd.Kz.250/3, two Sd.Kz.250/10, five Sd.Kfz.251/3, one Sd.Kz.251/8, two Sd.Kz.251/11)
1. Kp. (Pz.Späh.) (26 Sd.Kz.234/2)
2. Kp. (Pz.Späh.) (nine Sd.Kfz.250/5, 16 Sd.Kfz.250/9)
3. Kp. (le.SPW) (22 Sd.Kfz.250/1, two Sd.Kfz.250/2, four Sd.Kfz.250/7)
4. Kp. (le.SPW) (22 Sd.Kfz.250/1, two Sd.Kfz.250/2, four Sd.Kfz.250/7)
5. Kp. (schwere) (1 Sd.Kfz. 250/10, six Sd.Kfz.251/1, two Sd.Kfz.251/3, seven Sd.Kfz.251/7, six Sd.Kfz.251/9, four Sd.Kfz. 251/10
Versorgungs-Kp.
Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21 with its Gefechtsstand SE of Condé-sur-Noireau was commanded by a Major Waldow and comprised:
1. Kp. (nine le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 16 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/9))
2. Kp. (six s.Pz.-Späh.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 233), eight s.Pz.-Späh.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 231/232), 16 le. Pz.-Späh.Wg. (three Sd.Kfz. 221 (28/41cm), six Sd.Kfz. 221 (le.MG), seven Sd.Kfz. 221 (2cm)
3. Kp. (two le.Pz.-Fk.Wg (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 28 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/1), seven m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
4. Kp. (two le.Pz-.Fk.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 28 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/1), seven m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
5. (schwere) Kp. (27 m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
Versorgungs-Kp.
WoW 26 234/2 in Panzer Lehr, not the 21 st PD ?
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
Richard, you over simplified the 21st's Heavy Company. It did not have 27 x SdKfz 251/1; 6 of them were 251/9 Stummel, 1 was a 251/10, 2 were 251/16 Flammethrowers and 5 were the towing vehicles for Pak40 (3) and 7,5cm leIG18(2) and while not listed in Perigault at least one of the remainder must have been the company commander's 251/3.
Alan
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
You are correct Alan. The listing for 5. Kp was originally a placeholder and I never remembered to update it. Thanks for the reminder!Alanmccoubrey wrote: ↑18 Nov 2021, 20:49Richard, you over simplified the 21st's Heavy Company. It did not have 27 x SdKfz 251/1; 6 of them were 251/9 Stummel, 1 was a 251/10, 2 were 251/16 Flammethrowers and 5 were the towing vehicles for Pak40 (3) and 7,5cm leIG18(2) and while not listed in Perigault at least one of the remainder must have been the company commander's 251/3.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
Regarding Feuchtinger's Funnies and the TOE of Becker's Stug.Abt.200:
In Ian Dalgleish's Goodwood Over the Battle book, there's a reproduction of parts of a map belonging to Becker and used during the battle, which indicated at least some of his batteries were split into 2 sections of 3 x 7,5 ea, forward, plus a third section of 4 x 10,5 cm a distance to the rear providing fire support, i.e. 6 x 7,5 and 4 x 10,5, plus an arty obsv vehicle of unknown type.
Furthermore, I have seen another chart or document somewhere with 6x75 Pak and 4x105 howz indicated. I have no explanation for this reversal of Pak-vs-Haubz numbers per battery.
In Ian Dalgleish's Goodwood Over the Battle book, there's a reproduction of parts of a map belonging to Becker and used during the battle, which indicated at least some of his batteries were split into 2 sections of 3 x 7,5 ea, forward, plus a third section of 4 x 10,5 cm a distance to the rear providing fire support, i.e. 6 x 7,5 and 4 x 10,5, plus an arty obsv vehicle of unknown type.
Furthermore, I have seen another chart or document somewhere with 6x75 Pak and 4x105 howz indicated. I have no explanation for this reversal of Pak-vs-Haubz numbers per battery.
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
Hi,
21st Pz and in particular its StuG Abt 200 is always a mess to understand, I also have Ian's book but would regard the Becker maps as his, but very likely post war memories.
The OOB documents written at the time, the Gliederung, are different, in that the four available all show four batteries not five as is known did exist, certainly in Op Goodwood, there were five.
Gliederung 1-5-44 shows four batteries with 24 Howitzers and 14 Paks.
Gliederung 1-6-44 shows four batteries with 24 Howitzers and 17 Paks.
Gliederung 1-7-44 shows four batteries with 24 Howitzers and 12 Paks.
Gliederung 1-8-44 shows four batteries with 19 Howitzers and 8 Paks, obviously this is after Goodwood.
So, make of it what you will, but it is also possible that Becker's maps are correct in that gun vehicles were moved around between batteries to suit situations, so official numbers per battery were not be the same when in action.
cheers
21st Pz and in particular its StuG Abt 200 is always a mess to understand, I also have Ian's book but would regard the Becker maps as his, but very likely post war memories.
The OOB documents written at the time, the Gliederung, are different, in that the four available all show four batteries not five as is known did exist, certainly in Op Goodwood, there were five.
Gliederung 1-5-44 shows four batteries with 24 Howitzers and 14 Paks.
Gliederung 1-6-44 shows four batteries with 24 Howitzers and 17 Paks.
Gliederung 1-7-44 shows four batteries with 24 Howitzers and 12 Paks.
Gliederung 1-8-44 shows four batteries with 19 Howitzers and 8 Paks, obviously this is after Goodwood.
So, make of it what you will, but it is also possible that Becker's maps are correct in that gun vehicles were moved around between batteries to suit situations, so official numbers per battery were not be the same when in action.
cheers
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
And let's not forget that there are photographs of a Hotchkiss 105mm SP clearly marked as belonging to the battalion's 5th Battery !
Alan
Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy
Alan.
How are you.
So did the 5. Kompanie have 12 x Sd.Kfz 251/1s in two Infantry Platoons ? maybe commanded by the single 251/10?
Ian
How are you.
So did the 5. Kompanie have 12 x Sd.Kfz 251/1s in two Infantry Platoons ? maybe commanded by the single 251/10?
Ian