Grave Bridge

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Brady
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Grave Bridge

Post by Brady » 22 Nov 2021 00:05

Does anyone Know what the German Garrison at the Grave bridge consisted of in September of 44 ?

Cant seam to find any mention of How many (or Who) they were, or what there TOE was.

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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Brady » 22 Nov 2021 17:53

I read through Bridge to Far, just now, and the fighting was brief to say the least, there was mention of two truck loads of troops coming up from the direction of Grave that were largely scared off, and the two Flack guns, one either end of the bridge, but again no mention of the German unit(s) involved.

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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Brady » 27 Nov 2021 19:47

They must of been some kind of rear area security troops, but I am still at a total loss to define them

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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Brady » 27 Nov 2021 20:08

Image


What did these consist of TOE Wise?

Landesschützen-Bataillon der Luftwaffe

Formed Winter 43/44 in Holland with 5 companies. Renamed Luftwaffen-Festungs-Bataillon XXII on 10.44 in Holland (3 companies).

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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Tom Peters » 28 Nov 2021 06:08

When locating German units in the Nijmegen area in September, a lot of the common sources have errors, but given the time and place, thats not surprising.

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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Richard Anderson » 28 Nov 2021 07:19

This appears to be taken from Robert Kershaw's It Never Snows in September?

Heeres-Unteroffiziers-Schule Jülich mobilized 575 men under command of Major Diedrichsdorf.

Füsilier-Ersatz- und Ausbildungs-Bataillon 39. was a single battalion, not two as Kershaw shows. It was probably based at Düsseldorf.

I am not sure that the Landesschützen-Bataillon der Luftwaffe 6. was there? Luftwaffen-Festungs-Bataillon II, III, IV, X, XV, XVI, XVII, XXI (Landesschützen-Bataillon der Luftwaffe 4), and XXII (Landesschützen-Bataillon der Luftwaffe 5.) were all raised in Holland or Wehrkreis VI area. III was at Venlo and XV at Düsseldorf, while II was with KG Erdmann, so none of them seem like good candidates.

I do not know of Luftwaffe "Stomach and Ear" replacement battalions, but Flieger-Ersatz-Bataillon VI was at Krefeld, so may be what was meant.

I have no idea what a 143mm howitzer is, so I do not know what Kershaw was talking about. I suspect he meant 12.2cm sFH (r).

It looks like Landesschützen-Ausbildungs-Bataillon I./6. was based in Grave, so it seems like a good candidate. When mobilized in September it had five Kompanien and 1,250 men, and it eventually went to Division Nr. 190
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Brady
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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Brady » 28 Nov 2021 17:19

Richard Anderson wrote:
28 Nov 2021 07:19
This appears to be taken from Robert Kershaw's It Never Snows in September?

Heeres-Unteroffiziers-Schule Jülich mobilized 575 men under command of Major Diedrichsdorf.

Füsilier-Ersatz- und Ausbildungs-Bataillon 39. was a single battalion, not two as Kershaw shows. It was probably based at Düsseldorf.

I am not sure that the Landesschützen-Bataillon der Luftwaffe 6. was there? Luftwaffen-Festungs-Bataillon II, III, IV, X, XV, XVI, XVII, XXI (Landesschützen-Bataillon der Luftwaffe 4), and XXII (Landesschützen-Bataillon der Luftwaffe 5.) were all raised in Holland or Wehrkreis VI area. III was at Venlo and XV at Düsseldorf, while II was with KG Erdmann, so none of them seem like good candidates.

I do not know of Luftwaffe "Stomach and Ear" replacement battalions, but Flieger-Ersatz-Bataillon VI was at Krefeld, so may be what was meant.

I have no idea what a 143mm howitzer is, so I do not know what Kershaw was talking about. I suspect he meant 12.2cm sFH (r).

It looks like Landesschützen-Ausbildungs-Bataillon I./6. was based in Grave, so it seems like a good candidate. When mobilized in September it had five Kompanien and 1,250 men, and it eventually went to Division Nr. 190
Yes Kershaw.

143 mm, I agree

Landesschützen-Ausbildungs-Bataillon I./6. Great News TY

Presumably the AA guns at the bridge were operated by some elements from the LW Fortres battalions???

....................

Is there a shortened way to express that is expectable ?

Landesschützen-Ausbildungs-Bataillon I./6.

I wonder what their TOE was like ?

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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Richard Anderson » 28 Nov 2021 17:30

Brady wrote:
28 Nov 2021 17:19
Is there a shortened way to express that is expectable ?

Landesschützen-Ausbildungs-Bataillon I./6.
Probably Ls.-Aus.-Btl. I./6.
I wonder what their TOE was like ?
A Stab of 2 O, 2 B, 3 U, and 13 M. Five companies of 4 O, 19 U, and 129 M.

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Brady
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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Brady » 28 Nov 2021 17:47

Richard Anderson wrote:
28 Nov 2021 17:30
Brady wrote:
28 Nov 2021 17:19
Is there a shortened way to express that is expectable ?

Landesschützen-Ausbildungs-Bataillon I./6.
Probably Ls.-Aus.-Btl. I./6.
I wonder what their TOE was like ?
A Stab of 2 O, 2 B, 3 U, and 13 M. Five companies of 4 O, 19 U, and 129 M.

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/
Again TY, Weapons allotments ? Presumably Second line kit?

This?:

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AETIUS 1980
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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by AETIUS 1980 » 28 Nov 2021 17:58

Even if the K.St.N are a good working support for periods of operational stability, the emergency movements carried out in September / October 1944 to compensate for the lack of troops on the western border of Germany and Holland make difficult to take them for certainty. In addition, the depots, taken for a long time for the benefit of the new forces set up in each of the Wehrkreis (divisions of the 29th wave for example) make the presence of such quantity of material illusory.
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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Richard Anderson » 28 Nov 2021 18:03

AETIUS 1980 wrote:
28 Nov 2021 17:58
Even if the K.St.N are a good working support for periods of operational stability, the emergency movements carried out in September / October 1944 to compensate for the lack of troops on the western border of Germany and Holland make difficult to take them for certainty. In addition, the depots, taken for a long time for the benefit of the new forces set up in each of the Wehrkreis (divisions of the 29th wave for example) make the presence of such quantity of material illusory.
Regards
Indeed. The note that the battalion had c. 1,250 officers and men after mobilizing under the WALKÜRE order would imply well over 200 per company.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Brady » 28 Nov 2021 18:04

AETIUS 1980 wrote:
28 Nov 2021 17:58
Even if the K.St.N are a good working support for periods of operational stability, the emergency movements carried out in September / October 1944 to compensate for the lack of troops on the western border of Germany and Holland make difficult to take them for certainty. In addition, the depots, taken for a long time for the benefit of the new forces set up in each of the Wehrkreis (divisions of the 29th wave for example) make the presence of such quantity of material illusory.
Regards
Ya i get that's Ideal, was probably far worse, probably captured equipment, perhaps ZvB 26 LMG's or MP 34's, French weapons maybe

Brady
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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Brady » 28 Nov 2021 18:09

Just so I am clear:

Landesschützen-Ausbildungs-Bataillon I./6. was part of the 406 th Division?

Is there a known Shield or Symbol for that Division?

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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Richard Anderson » 28 Nov 2021 19:07

Brady wrote:
28 Nov 2021 18:09
Just so I am clear:

Landesschützen-Ausbildungs-Bataillon I./6. was part of the 406 th Division?
Probably, although it was later reorganized as the Füsilier-Bataillon of Division Nr. 190 (later 190. Infanterie-Division) when it was mobilized from Neuminster on 18 September.
Is there a known Shield or Symbol for that Division?
It was not a division, it was a division staff organized specifically to command the Landesschützen in Wehrkreis VI and along the west bank of the Rhine in Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Niederlande. As such, it likely never had a recognized shield or symbol.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Brady
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Re: Grave Bridge

Post by Brady » 28 Nov 2021 19:54

Richard Anderson wrote:
28 Nov 2021 19:07
Brady wrote:
28 Nov 2021 18:09
Just so I am clear:

Landesschützen-Ausbildungs-Bataillon I./6. was part of the 406 th Division?
Probably, although it was later reorganized as the Füsilier-Bataillon of Division Nr. 190 (later 190. Infanterie-Division) when it was mobilized from Neuminster on 18 September.
Is there a known Shield or Symbol for that Division?
It was not a division, it was a division staff organized specifically to command the Landesschützen in Wehrkreis VI and along the west bank of the Rhine in Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Niederlande. As such, it likely never had a recognized shield or symbol.
WoW, on the 18th of September at the start of the attack they reorganized them.

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