Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

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George L Gregory
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by George L Gregory » 26 Dec 2021 17:38

ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 11:23
It is not on me ,80 years after the facts, to label the T4 Aktion orders as wrong,the same for the Katyn orders .Only the temporaries can label them as crimes .
Wait, what???

Anyone with a brain can state that the murders were crimes and wrong.

This is simply trolling.

ljadw
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 26 Dec 2021 17:56

George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:34
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 05:38
That the victims were innocent humans is another thing .
Every year thousands of people in western countries are killed by doctors,without their consent .
Before Hitler arrived ,well known people in Britain demanded that people with mental /physical deformities should be killed by poison gas .
GB Shaw was one of them .
Are you for real? The false equivalence fallacy is something you keep on using in this thread.

Also, provide a source for your claim that “every year thousands of people in Western countries are killed by doctors without their consent”.
Source ? Daily Mail 11 June 2015 :
Title : ''Belgian GPs ''killing patients who have not asked to die .''
And about the fallacy : what is the difference between what GB Shaw demanded that should be done and what what Hitler ordered to do ?
Churchill proposed not to kill them,but to lock them up in camps and to sterilize them .But the killing would follow .
Teddy Roosevelt : degenerates (probably Democrats or supporters of Taft ) should not have the right to procreate .
Lord Adrian :''be prepared to separate mothers from children .'' Adolf did the same .

ljadw
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 26 Dec 2021 18:14

George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:38
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 11:23
It is not on me ,80 years after the facts, to label the T4 Aktion orders as wrong,the same for the Katyn orders .Only the temporaries can label them as crimes .
Wait, what???

Anyone with a brain can state that the murders were crimes and wrong.

This is simply trolling.
I disagree : only the contemporaries can qualify something as a crime, not those who were not born when the murders happened .
Only the contemporaries could say that the crucifixion by the Romans of prisoners was a crime, not us who were born 2000 years later . As it was not a crime for the contemporaries, it can't be a crime for us .
80 years ago, the Katyn orders were not considered as crimes, thus why should they be crimes 80 years ago ?

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Gorque
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Gorque » 27 Dec 2021 00:41

ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:06
To attack the Aktion T 4 ,but deny that such things happen also in Britain and the US ,is saying : we are not like the Germans .
Before 2003 18000 people were yearly euthanized in Britain . And everyone knows that their consent/demand,opposition did not count in the decision to kill them .In the Netherlands and Belgium mentally ill people are euthanized without/against their consent .
Helen Keller said that a doctor had the right and the duty to decide whether a life was worth living . Hitler said the same .
Churchill proposed the compulsory sterilization of 120000 persons ( Did you not talk about basic human rights ?),GB Shaw proposed to gaz all those who were,following him, not worth to live ( Basic human rights ? )
This is getting more interesting by the post. You can provide verifiable proof of the 18,000 per annum murders I hope.

And the last I heard, George Bernard Shaw was in the minority.

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Gorque
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Gorque » 27 Dec 2021 00:42

George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:38
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 11:23
It is not on me ,80 years after the facts, to label the T4 Aktion orders as wrong,the same for the Katyn orders .Only the temporaries can label them as crimes .
Wait, what???

Anyone with a brain can state that the murders were crimes and wrong.

This is simply trolling.
*Emulates Gary Cooper* Ayup

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Gorque
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Gorque » 27 Dec 2021 00:45

ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 18:14
George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:38
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 11:23
It is not on me ,80 years after the facts, to label the T4 Aktion orders as wrong,the same for the Katyn orders .Only the temporaries can label them as crimes .
Wait, what???

Anyone with a brain can state that the murders were crimes and wrong.

This is simply trolling.
I disagree : only the contemporaries can qualify something as a crime, not those who were not born when the murders happened .
Only the contemporaries could say that the crucifixion by the Romans of prisoners was a crime, not us who were born 2000 years later . As it was not a crime for the contemporaries, it can't be a crime for us .
80 years ago, the Katyn orders were not considered as crimes, thus why should they be crimes 80 years ago ?
Then why were the murders done in secret and why did the Soviets deny that they had murdered the Polish POW's? If was not a crime, then be forthright about it.

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Gorque
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Gorque » 27 Dec 2021 00:48

Gorque wrote:
26 Dec 2021 14:09
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 05:38
There are no such things as unwritten laws and rights of humanity .
Every year thousands of people in western countries are killed by doctors,without their consent .
Proof of this allegation is urgently required or else I'm going have to label you a conspiracy theorist.
I'm waiting. Where is the proof to support this position?

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Gorque
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Gorque » 27 Dec 2021 00:50

George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:35
Gorque wrote:
26 Dec 2021 14:09
Proof of this allegation is urgently required or else I'm going have to label you a conspiracy theorist.
Are you not familiar with him? He’s well known as a conspiracy theorist (aka a nutjob) on this forum. Check his posts history.

Ludo and I have crossed swords before on AHF and on the now thankfully defunct Armchair General forums.

George L Gregory
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by George L Gregory » 27 Dec 2021 11:51

ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 18:14
George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:38
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 11:23
It is not on me ,80 years after the facts, to label the T4 Aktion orders as wrong,the same for the Katyn orders .Only the temporaries can label them as crimes .
Wait, what???

Anyone with a brain can state that the murders were crimes and wrong.

This is simply trolling.
I disagree : only the contemporaries can qualify something as a crime, not those who were not born when the murders happened .
Only the contemporaries could say that the crucifixion by the Romans of prisoners was a crime, not us who were born 2000 years later . As it was not a crime for the contemporaries, it can't be a crime for us .
80 years ago, the Katyn orders were not considered as crimes, thus why should they be crimes 80 years ago ?
So let me get this right, you don’t and you won’t condemn rapes and murders from years ago as morally wrong because you weren’t there at those times?

George L Gregory
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by George L Gregory » 27 Dec 2021 11:53

Gorque wrote:
27 Dec 2021 00:48
Gorque wrote:
26 Dec 2021 14:09
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 05:38
There are no such things as unwritten laws and rights of humanity .
Every year thousands of people in western countries are killed by doctors,without their consent .
Proof of this allegation is urgently required or else I'm going have to label you a conspiracy theorist.
I'm waiting. Where is the proof to support this position?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... octor.html

That’s his source.

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 27 Dec 2021 13:41

George L Gregory wrote:
27 Dec 2021 11:51
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 18:14
George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:38
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 11:23
It is not on me ,80 years after the facts, to label the T4 Aktion orders as wrong,the same for the Katyn orders .Only the temporaries can label them as crimes .
Wait, what???

Anyone with a brain can state that the murders were crimes and wrong.

This is simply trolling.
I disagree : only the contemporaries can qualify something as a crime, not those who were not born when the murders happened .
Only the contemporaries could say that the crucifixion by the Romans of prisoners was a crime, not us who were born 2000 years later . As it was not a crime for the contemporaries, it can't be a crime for us .
80 years ago, the Katyn orders were not considered as crimes, thus why should they be crimes 80 years ago ?
So let me get this right, you don’t and you won’t condemn rapes and murders from years ago as morally wrong because you weren’t there at those times?
After the battle of Alesia ,Vercingetorix was captured,transported to Rome and was garotted there . A plain crime following todays morality . Do you expect me to condemn the execution of Vercingetorix ?
And,about the rapes and murders of the past : if they were not qualified as crimes by the contemporaries,why should I judge them with the morals of 2021 ?
The French King Louis Le Bel ordered to burn the Templars at the stake .This was considered legal in those days . Should I now condemn this ?Jeanne d'Arc suffered the same fate .Should the US Supreme Court now declare illegal the executions from Salem ?
And, I object to the use of ''morally '' wrong :morally wrong is what we ,today, are considering as morally wrong,not what did say our forefathers .In most time of human history,rape and murder were NOT considered as morally wrong .
People were /are not condemned because they did something that was morally wrong, but because they did something that was illegal.
During WW 2 a woman was executed in France,because she perpetrated abortions , now no one would importune her .Must I condemn the woman,or the judge ?
In some Muslim states people are executed for things for which they would not be punished in the West . Must I condemn this ? And why ?
After the war, several Nazis got the death penalty and were executed. If I were an opponent of the death penalty (which I am not ) should I condemn these executions ?
GI Eddie Slovik was executed at the end of the war . Why should I approve/ condemn his execution?
About Katyn : If I were Polish, I would use it as a weapon against Russia . But I am mot Polish, thus ...

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Gorque
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Gorque » 27 Dec 2021 19:53

Interesting, ljadw states "every year" and the article states "Thousands of elderly people have been killed" The numbers are nebulous and the term "every year" is missing from the article.

I'd say someone embellished. :roll:

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henryk
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by henryk » 27 Dec 2021 20:47

80 years ago, the Katyn orders were not considered as crimes, thus why should they be crimes 80 years ago ?
https://www.archives.gov/research/forei ... n-massacre
Records Relating to the Katyn Forest Massacre at the National Archives
Summary of Events
Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union each invaded Poland in September of 1939, having divided the country into separate spheres of influence under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. While the Germans began a massacre of Jews and Poles in western occupied Poland, the Red Army arrested and imprisoned thousands of Polish military officers, policemen, and intelligentsia during their occupation of eastern Poland. Prisoners of war and civilian internees captured by the Soviets were placed in several camps in the western USSR, run by the Soviet People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs, or NKVD, a predecessor organization to the modern FSB-camps including Kozielsk, Ostashkov, and Starobielsk.

In April 1943, in the Katyn Forest near Smolensk in the Soviet Union, occupying German troops discovered eight large graves containing the remains of thousands of the Polish Army officers and intellectual leaders who had been interned at the prisoner-of-war camp at Kozielsk. Bodies of the prisoners who had been housed at Ostashkov and Starobielsk were discovered near Piatykhatky and Mednoye, respectively. Collectively, these murders are known as the Katyn Forest Massacre.

An internationally-staffed medical commission organized by the Germans excavated the area in early spring 1943. As the excavation progressed, the Germans brought in several groups of observers, including some American prisoners-of-war. This commission determined that the massacre occurred in 1940, when the area was under Soviet control -- a determination which was then used as a propaganda tool intended to disrupt the alliance between the US, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union. This effort was successful in part, as Polish intelligence sources immediately blamed the Soviets for the atrocities, leading to a break in diplomatic relations between Poland and the USSR.

After their recapture of Smolensk in the autumn of 1943, the Soviet government organized its own excavation. This second enquiry concluded that the Polish prisoners of war had been captured and executed by invading German units in August 1941.

The official American response at the time was one of non-involvement. In a June 1943 telegram to Churchill, Roosevelt expressed approval that the British approach to Stalin was grounded "upon the obvious necessity of creating the most favorable conditions for bringing the full weight of the armed forces of all the United Nations to bear upon the common enemy....The winning of the war is the paramount objective for all of us. For this unity is necessary."

Later, on September 18, 1951, the United States House of Representatives established the Select Committee to Conduct an Investigation and Study of the Facts, Evidence, and Circumstances of the Katyn Forest Massacre, known as the Madden Committee after its chairman, Rep. Ray J. Madden of Indiana. The committee assembled records relating to the massacre and its aftermath, including records from the files of the State and War Departments, in addition to hearing extensive witness testimony. Their purpose was to determine which nation was responsible for the atrocities and whether any American officials had engaged in covering up the massacre.

The Madden Committee determined unanimously that the NKVD was responsible for the executions, and recommended a trial before the International World Court of Justice. The question of an American cover-up was less clear cut. In its final report, the committee concluded that American officials failed to properly evaluate and act upon clear danger signals in Russian behavior evident as early as 1942. In addition, the committee found that American policy toward the Soviet Union might have been different if information deliberately withheld from the public had been made available sooner.

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 27 Dec 2021 22:26

What happened in 1951 happened during the Cold War and the Cold War was the reason why US said that the Cheka was responsible . When the Soviets were allies, US remained silent although every one knew that the Soviets were responsible .
The claim that the Soviets were responsible was made for political reasons .

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 27 Dec 2021 22:37

Gorque wrote:
27 Dec 2021 19:53
Interesting, ljadw states "every year" and the article states "Thousands of elderly people have been killed" The numbers are nebulous and the term "every year" is missing from the article.

I'd say someone embellished. :roll:
If you want more detailed figures :
See

''A critical look at the rising euthanasia rates in the Netherlands ''
Between 2013 and 2017 there were in the Netherlands 25979 confirmed euthanasia killings (thus in reality much more ) .In 2019 6361 .
This means thousands a year .
This means also thousands a year in Britain,Belgium, Germany ,etc,..
And I know personally an euthanasia case from some 20 years ago .

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