"Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

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Stiltzkin
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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Stiltzkin » 01 Sep 2021 10:45

I don't think war thunder's russian game devs are fascist but the russian buffs are pretty ridiculous.-
Video games receive financial backing by the Russian Military Historical Society.

https://www.gamersglobal.de/news/77442/ ... zuschussen

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 01 Sep 2021 14:39

Contender wrote:
01 Sep 2021 09:50
Stiltzkin wrote:
01 Sep 2021 07:38
Video games can be a tool of propaganda too, especially if they are financed by a fascist regime.

I don't think war thunder's russian game devs are fascist but the russian buffs are pretty ridiculous.- :lol:
The most annoying buffs are the ones which aren't even sourced. IIRC German munitions (and only German munitions) get less effectiveness on slopes despite latewar German shells being specifically designed to be able to tolerate slopes. Meanwhile Russian 76mm short barreled can outperform the L/48 75mm against slopes...Grrr.

On the topic of the Hetzer however, I am still curious on the side armor of the vehicle, at 20mm it wouldn't have stopped much at all, shrapnel perhaps but not much larger. Was this 'normal' quality or shoddy?

critical mass
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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by critical mass » 07 Sep 2021 10:59

There is no evidence for passing of armor plate -any thickness- below specifications.
Only pilot models were sometimes fitted with unhardened steel plates and for this very reason declared unfit for combat.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 07 Sep 2021 12:59

critical mass wrote:
07 Sep 2021 10:59
There is no evidence for passing of armor plate -any thickness- below specifications.
Only pilot models were sometimes fitted with unhardened steel plates and for this very reason declared unfit for combat.
So even the 20mm sides should be expected to withstand threats a 20mm plate typically would resist? Interesting.

I do know of the pre-production/prototypes which were sometimes made of mild steel for ease of manufacture.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Peasant » 22 Dec 2021 12:43

I've enhanced this image and translated some text. I got interesting results: if this data is to be believed, apparently on this particular vehicle some armor plates were significantly thinner than was specified in the original design:

Image

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 22 Dec 2021 12:47

Peasant wrote:
22 Dec 2021 12:43
I've enhanced this image and translated some text. I got interesting results: if this data is to be believed, apparently on this particular vehicle some armor plates were significantly thinner than was specified in the original design:

Image
That's...A Ferdinand hull I think?

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Peasant » 22 Dec 2021 13:28

ThatZenoGuy wrote:
22 Dec 2021 12:47

That's...A Ferdinand hull I think?
Yes, since this is the most recent thread where Ferdinand was discussed I opted to post this here instead of reviving some early 2000s thread.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 22 Dec 2021 13:35

Peasant wrote:
22 Dec 2021 13:28
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
22 Dec 2021 12:47

That's...A Ferdinand hull I think?
Yes, since this is the most recent thread where Ferdinand was discussed I opted to post this here instead of reviving some early 2000s thread.
I'm half blind, so what are the significant changes in armor thickness relative to what they should be?

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Peasant » 22 Dec 2021 15:48

Be sure to open the image twice, first this one and then another from the image hosting site, the original is very high res, the numbers should be readable fairly well.
Well, the single biggest discrepancy I see is the lower side thickness, 40mm instead of 80, even less than lower side armor of Tiger I. The driver's plate and sloped front are not 100+100mm(200) but 85mm base thickness + 105mm addon armour(190). The two rear plates are 60 and 70mm instead of both being 80. The lower nose is also 70mm thick. Other plates have their expected thickness (within manufacturing tolerances).

edit: I don't believe this is an issue with measurement accuracy, its accurate to the nearest millimetre, enough to discern that there is a difference between 82mm and 85mm thick plates on this vehicle.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Contender » 23 Dec 2021 00:17

Image
The section in red was thicker on the Tiger (P), before it was turned into an assault gun something like 100-115 mm IIRC.
Last edited by Contender on 23 Dec 2021 01:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 23 Dec 2021 00:28

Peasant wrote:
22 Dec 2021 15:48
Be sure to open the image twice, first this one and then another from the image hosting site, the original is very high res, the numbers should be readable fairly well.
Well, the single biggest discrepancy I see is the lower side thickness, 40mm instead of 80, even less than lower side armor of Tiger I. The driver's plate and sloped front are not 100+100mm(200) but 85mm base thickness + 105mm addon armour(190). The two rear plates are 60 and 70mm instead of both being 80. The lower nose is also 70mm thick. Other plates have their expected thickness (within manufacturing tolerances).

edit: I don't believe this is an issue with measurement accuracy, its accurate to the nearest millimetre, enough to discern that there is a difference between 82mm and 85mm thick plates on this vehicle.
I am having a bit of difficulty believing these numbers, it would mean the entire tank would have had to have been taken apart and welded back together with brand new custom plates.

The Ferdinand/Elefant wasn't the cheapest of conversions but they didn't alter any of the plates already on the tank surely?

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by JonathanHiggins » 27 Dec 2021 10:47

Peasant wrote:
02 Apr 2021 16:14
With RHA armor plating, the amount of damage entering a vehicle can be quiete small until a calibre sized hole is formed through plastic deformation or, preferably, plug ejection.
You are making an Interesting point here. Are you suggesting that failure by plug ejection is somehow beneficial for the armour at high obliquity? Perhaps accelerating the ejected plug robs the shell of some it's velocity vector component directed towards the armor and turns it away from it's path? Just making a wild guess, I haven't seem much research done on this topic. Although I know that the optimum hardness level for the plate increases for a given T/D ratio as the obliquity increases between 0 and 45°, not sure if this relationship holds up at even higher obliquity.
I'd like to second this question. Would be really interested in reading more about this.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Yoozername » 27 Dec 2021 11:25

I remember a thread I had with mobius in matrix website. Basically, the Original Porsche Tigers had the same specs as Henschel Tigers. So, lower hull side armor 60 mm. They OBVIOUSLY had major rework on the structure as far as ...everything above?

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 27 Dec 2021 11:46

Yoozername wrote:
27 Dec 2021 11:25
I remember a thread I had with mobius in matrix website. Basically, the Original Porsche Tigers had the same specs as Henschel Tigers. So, lower hull side armor 60 mm. They OBVIOUSLY had major rework on the structure as far as ...everything above?
I've seen sources saying the lower side armor of Ferdinand was 60mm though, which would make sense given the Tiger (P)'s hull.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Mobius » 29 Dec 2021 03:27

Contender wrote:
23 Dec 2021 00:17
Image
The section in red was thicker on the Tiger (P), before it was turned into an assault gun something like 100-115 mm IIRC.
I'm not sure what that armor is.

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